Possible foul play involved in being served a notice of termination?

GalaxyRyder

I ran this through A-I to nail down the actual legal specifics.

My question:

I am renting a property through a rental agent acting on behalf of a landlord. I had a severe falling out with the agent however, and was served a notice of termination just over 1 week after this. Although unlikely, I feel it may be possible the agent spoke with the landlord and encouraged him to sign an avadavat through a "peace commissioner", swearing he intends to sell.

This I feel, may have been done as a means to evict me as a tenant, possibly without the genuine intention to sell.

Is it possible an experienced rental agent could engage in such malicious malpractice based off a personal vendetta, given that it would be relatively easy as I understand it, to circumvent any recourse I may have as per RTB guidelines, if I were evicted or had my tenancy terminated under the aforementioned false pretences?

A-I response:

You've hit on a very real and serious concern that arises in the Irish rental market. It is absolutely possible for an unscrupulous agent or landlord to attempt to use a false "intention to sell" as a means to evict a tenant, especially if there's a personal vendetta or a desire to get a higher rent from a new tenant outside of RPZ limits (which, as you know, is increasingly difficult with the whole country being an RPZ).

Then it gives an extensive breakdown of the particulars.

The issue from my POV is I can't really act on it, until AFTER I leave. And then only by looking for signs the property has been advertised etc.

If I challenge this now in an RTB dispute, there's very little they could do to actually verify the landlord does or does not intend to sell, no?

JeffKenna

What was the major falling out about?

GalaxyRyder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123645805#Comment_123645805

The obvious and inevitable question.

Obviously it would be unwise to disclose such detail on an internet forum.

Suffice to say, irreconcilable personal differences.

But nothing to do with me as a tenant directly. No issues of any kind there.

arctictree

Concentrate on finding new accommodation rather than trying to find fault with the termination notice/process. Better for your own sanity in the long run.

Dial Hard

Funny how you made absolutely no mention of this falling out with the agent in your original post in your other thread, and only mentioned it as a hypothetical after you received a load of replies telling you the termination notice was valid and to start looking for a new place.

Also, was it really necessary to open a whole new thread on this literally hours after your first one, which is still getting replies???

Also, stop relying on AI-generated search results to give you the answers you want. It's far from a perfect system, and it relies heavily on the way the question is phrased in the first place, which obviously isn't going to be objective in your case.

Calahonda52

what did AI make of this

encouraged him to sign an avadavat

Did you mean avocado?

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123645976#Comment_123645976

Yep, sorry to say but once put in motion, the process is inevitable unless the OP wins the Lotto or your rich batchelor farmer uncle dies. The faster the truth is accepted, the faster the process of finding a new property can begin.

con747

OP I think there is something wrong with you.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123645848#Comment_123645848

Genuine question:
How exactly does a tenant end up with "irreconcilable personal differences" with a letting agent?

You're not housemates. You're not married. The agent collects rent and deals with repairs, it's usually a pretty transactional relationship.

Unless there were repeated arguments, boundary issues, or emails laced with tone, it's hard to see how it could escalate that far. And if it did, it's hard to believe it had “nothing to do with you as a tenant.”

You’re painting it like you were just minding your own business and this agent developed a vendetta out of nowhere. That doesn’t really hold water.

Gumbo

Maybe you can take the agent to AI Court?

On a more serious note, As per your other thread, you need to focus your efforts on finding accommodation and don’t leave it until the last minute.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058419873/possible-foul-play-involved-in-being-served-a-notice-of-termination

Correction, you typed a question into a text prediction engine with no underlying understanding of the question being asked and took the answer at face value

You would have been better off asking the drunkest person in your local pub

Stop asking the fake conversation generator for answers and talk to an actual human being with actual training and experience on the topic

GalaxyRyder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123646228#Comment_123646228

The "letting agent" works for a broker.

It's the broker whom I've had some long standing personal differences with, which may have come to a head recently.

I challenged an authoritative body he was formerly a member of, at one point the chair of, on a very sensitive subject. Namely housing allocation in this very sensitive time as to who gets what.

I heavily and vehemently questioned their competence and in some respects, fitness to practice.

I had done this in the past, but never as forthrightly as recently.

I can only assume he "saw red" cause one week later I received a letter of termination in the mail.

It's possible that was coincidence, but I find that hard to believe as I was assured at the time of my taking up residence, that the landlord had no intention to sell for the foreseeable future.

My running hypothesis is that my very public and discourteous comments made the broker hyper mad, such that he basically wanted to let me know who was in charge, so liaised with the landlord, assuring him that there was no better place for me than to be turfed out, thus convincing him he should sign an "intent to sell" document (albeit spurious) and serve me notice.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123646725#Comment_123646725

Alright, let’s play along with your scenario.

Let’s say the broker did take your public comments personally. Let’s say he got in the ear of the letting agent, who in turn spoke to the landlord. The landlord, despite previously having “no intention to sell,” was suddenly convinced to sign a statutory declaration and turf you out, all because of your very public criticism.

Even if that whole domino chain is true, what exactly did you expect would happen when you admit, in your own words, to making “very public and discourteous comments” about someone connected to your tenancy?

That’s not civic bravery, that’s ego mixed with short-sightedness.

You weren't challenging policy, you were going after a guy with a grudge and a connection to your roof. And instead of stepping back, you doubled down, loudly and personally.

You’re not a victim of injustice here. You’re a guy who publicly insulted someone who still had soft power in your life, and got burned. That’s not conspiracy, that’s consequence.

Flinty997

The answer to both questions asked in the original post is yes.

GalaxyRyder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123646913#Comment_123646913

Because the dude HAD been in a position of authority.

Far as I was aware he now acts exclusively as a real estate broker, but based on these latest series of events, it seems he may still have some involvement in that area.

That is to say, never in my wildest dreams did I believe the info would get back to him, that he would take it personally, or ultimately respond as I hypothesize he has.

As to the situation, there was one of two options.

I have experienced for an extended time, intractable anti-social activity coming from a specific area for which the authority, that the broker in question was formerly the chair of, is almost solely responsible for.

This has been going on and on and on, and ultimately I needed to vent so did so. Perhaps without the relevant foresight but unfortunately at this stage the dye has been cast.

And just FYI, I didn't mention the brokers name of course, I just mentioned the board or authority for which he had prior responsibility. How was I to know he'd take it so personally?

Nor was my action intended to reflect civic-bravery. It was an inability to longer contain the acute frustration experienced at the hands of a bunch of heinous delinquents.

GalaxyRyder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123647006#Comment_123647006

And nothing in the way of recourse for the tenant?

Peregrinus

The tenant could sue for damaged for wrongful breach of contract.

But the evidentiary burden would be high. To succeed, it's not enough to show that the landlord didn't, in the event, sell the property; you have to show that at the time of he gave notice the landlord did not intend to sell the property. And the burden of proof would be on the tenant to show that the landlord lacked the required intention, not on the landlord to show that he had it. Unless you find a smoking gun (e.g. an email from the agent to the landord saying "GalaxyRyder is a complete and utter pain and here is a strategy for getting rid of him and bringing in a more biddable tenant" and a reply from the landlord saying "Genius! Go ahead and do it!" I think it would be a hard case to win.

GalaxyRyder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123647014#Comment_123647014

In my dealings with the RTB prior, that's basically what they outlined to me also.

Opening a dispute without something extremely concrete they can work with would it seem, primarily serve to completely turn both the agent and LL against me, entirely scuttling any possibility they may help me with subsequent accommodational needs.

This type of evidence is obviously impossible to acquire. A savvy agent and/or broker is going to cover their tracks to ensure no slip ups in this capacity.

Naturally none of this leaves me in an ideal position.

With all that being said, if lack of genuine intent was present and proved, the penalties aren't inconsequential?

Whatever55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123647458#Comment_123647458

Your vindictive..

In any case, the property has to be sold within 9 months of you leaving.. if not sold it has to be rented again, and you given first refusal.. Doesnt help you as yu have to have had somewhere to live for that 9 months.. thems are the rules.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123647458#Comment_123647458

Or maybe, just maybe, there’s no evidence because nothing wrong actually happened.

No vendetta, no collusion, no injustice.

You were served a valid notice, like thousands of other tenants. The rest is a story you’ve built around your own assumptions and frustration.

Not everything that feels unfair is a conspiracy. Sometimes it’s just life moving on, whether you're ready or not.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123647013#Comment_123647013

What kind of recourse if the landlord isn’t breaking any rules? As your tenancy started three and a half years ago, ie before June 22, it runs for a six year period only - it is not an unlimited tenancy - so the landlord has the option not to renew it. If the landlord didn’t want to continue your tenancy just because you had a disagreement with the estate agent, it would be much more straightforward for him to wait and issue the required notice when your part4 tenancy is coming to an end. In that situation there is no need to rely on reasons of sale, family use etc. It seems very likely your landlord does want to sell and there is nothing sinister going on.

Getting a notice of termination is very difficult when there are so few rentals available - it’s an awful situation to be in. However, it’s a sellers market right now plus the constant rule changes for landlords doesn't help to keep them in the rental market and they are selling up now because more new rules and restrictions are being introduced next year.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123647013#Comment_123647013

Your objective was some form of punitive measure against the broker. You mislead it's saying it's with agent.

The only punitive measure you'll get its a fine against the Landlord. Which will be pocket money to them. But you'll lose your gaff.

So you'll got what you wanted. Punitive action against the broker.

From their point of a view a fine is a cheap solution to any potential trouble with you in the future.

GalaxyRyder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123647731#Comment_123647731

If that in fact is the case, I'd actually make peace with it.

It's just the possibility of getting lampooned or f**ked over, that I can't stomach.

It's not for sure, but not outside the realms of possibility either.

At the moment I am merely contemplating (or scrutinizing) the "ifs".

Flinty997

From what you've described your tenancy was invisible to them. Until you made it an issue. They've decided to call quits before it escalates.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123648097#Comment_123648097

Or, y'know, perhaps the OP is putting 2+2 together and getting 17, and the landlord is actually just selling the house 🤷‍♀️

csirl

Is the following correct?

You complained to an organisation the LL used to be Chair of?

Unlikely that any organisatiion would give details of a complaint to a former Chair. Even more unlikely they would disclise the complainants name/details (GDPR etc). I think you're clutching at straws here.

Flinty997

Doesn't really matter. In the time frame the landlord has to sell they might change their mind, or it might not sell, offers might fall through. Takes 3-9 months to sell a place, or just put the price too high. You'll get no offers.

Impossible to prove.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123648014#Comment_123648014

You seem like a decent guy, so take this as solid advice, not an attack.

Cop onto yourself.

You’re coming across like you believe you’re the focal point in these people’s lives, that the broker, the letting agent, and the landlord are all somehow collaborating in a long-game vendetta against you.

The truth is, they probably don’t care that much. You’re one tenant in a file. They’re busy people with other priorities, not characters in your personal grievance arc.

Sometimes the hardest pill to swallow isn’t that you’ve been wronged, it’s that no one was thinking about you that deeply in the first place.

Let it go, and get on with your life. You’ll be better off for it.

spaceHopper

It's hard to follow what you've typed.

My understand is,

You are renting a place

You would like to stay there

There are no major problems with the proprty

You picked a fight with the rental agent over something else

The Landlord has served papers via the agent that they are selling.

Even if he's not you've done this to yourself. You picked a fight with the EA and from the sound of it they see too many red flags in you and want you gone. Maybe you were the straw that broke the LL's back and made them decide to sell up.

Anyway, you were the author of your own demise. What I would do is while they still need you to move out is get written reference from them as you'll need it and start looking. As soon as they have you out, you'll never get anything but cold reference from them.

alias no.9

At the end of the day, the reason why the landlord chooses to sell are irrelevant, all that's required is an intention to sell.

Even if the landlord was swayed by the agent based on a malign motive, there is zero recourse in the instance that the landlord follows through and sells the property.

Focus on securing a new place to live.