What's the deal with the TFI brand ?

GarneyX

Is the long-term plan to retire the Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann brands completely? Both brands have lost a lot of their identity in recent years. As I understand it, back in the day all buses were "CIE busses" then in the Mid-late 80s, as a result of restructuring in CIE, two separate subsidiary companies & brands Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann were set up. I still hear people, even young people calling Bus Eireann busses CIE busses to this day.

Glaceon

The National Transport Authority (NTA) have taken over the overall management of public transport services with the TFI branding. The CIE companies (and GoAhead) are just contractors now, they’re paid by the NTA to run the services, or fined if they don’t meet targets. It also means that the NTA can change contractors and the only difference the passengers should notice is the logo on the side of the bus.

Rawr

Kind of interesting that we have sort of come full circle (or "Broken Wheel" if you will :P ) when it comes to national transport branding in Ireland. The overall national / regional logo & branding, with a private contractor under that, has been a standard practice in a lot Europe.

What's interesting is that in the guts of 40 years we went from every bit of public transport being under a unified CIE brand to dividing it up…to eventually reforming the concept as TFI. I'm probably a little biased, since I grew up with it, but I still feel that the CIE logo works better in this role than the TFI one. The TFI branding is perfectly fine and does the job…but it just isn't the good old "Broken Wheel" of CIE.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123577465#Comment_123577465

What's interesting is that in the guts of 40 years we went from every bit of public transport being under a unified CIE brand to dividing it up…to eventually reforming the concept as TFI.

The issue was while they had the same parent company, practically speaking they weren't really aligned or integrated.

For instance the lack of real integrated ticketing between Dublin Bus and DART and other commuter rail and BE services.

Or how DB and BE City bus services both did their own thing, buying different bus models, different ticketing machines, etc.

You would also have the weird situation where for instance Irish Rail and BE would share stations around the country, but then BE seemed to bend over backwards not to directly compete with rail, etc.

Under NTA/TFI you are seeing real integration and streaming lining. Leap cards, 90 minute tickets, RTPI, BE in Limerick get the same electric double decker buses DB get, etc. Still more to go, like the lack of 90 minute ticket in Cork, but getting there slowly.

icdg

How long it’s taking to roll out is mad - you still won’t find it on most trains (though it will be on the new DART+ units) or trams either (though there has always been a policy not to have any branding of any kind on trams, so I wouldn’t take anything from that). While I can’t remember exactly when it first appeared (sometime around 2011 or 2012 I think - the NTA was established at the end of 2009 but it took a bit of time before it first appeared on a bus).

It must be one of the most protracted brand rollouts of all time, so much so that they had actually replaced the original wheel logo with the teardrop “TFI” fairly early on.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123577984#Comment_123577984

Oh, system-wise for sure, not really intergrated at all. I'm thinking more along the lines of intergraded branding. Back in the day all public transport was "CIE".

• Green CIE = City Bus / DART,
• Red CIE = Regional Bus
• Orange CIE = Trains

In that respect there was a unified brand, much like what they are trying with TFI. It will be a bonus once the TFI branding is indeed rolled out to everything.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123577984#Comment_123577984

There used to be DB+IE and DB+Luas tickets pre Leap. DB also had the Travel 90 tickets back then so there was 90 minute fare just only for buses. It took them long enough between the scrapping of the Travel 90 tickets and introduction of the 90 minute fare.

Wouldn't be that uncommon for two different operators in different cities in the same country using different buses and ticket machines. London has different buses to Manchester, Paris has different buses to Marseilles, Milan has different buses to Rome, Berlin has different buses to Munich etc.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123578244#Comment_123578244

I'm aware, but there was no DB+IR+Luas ticket, which was poor. The T90 was DB only.

But worse, all the above tickets were hard to buy and poorly advertised and a pain to use. Most regular people didn't know they existed and it was really only hardcore regular users who knew about them. Plus the whole flap with having to buy 10 x T90 tickets at the same time, on a flimsy cardboard ticket that you had to remember to bring with you and not lose. And if you did lose it, there goes 10 tickets worth of money!

There is simply no comparison between these and the modern Leap + 90 minute ticket.

Works across DB+GAI+IR+Luas, no need to buy in advance and know anything about it, just use your Leap card and you get it by default. Complete game changer.

Wouldn't be that uncommon for two different operators in different cities in the same country using different buses and ticket machines. London has different buses to Manchester, Paris has different buses to Marseilles, Milan has different buses to Rome, Berlin has different buses to Munich etc.

We are such a small country it is just easier to pool our resources. We save money by placing a big order for say 800 buses, then three separate orders of 300 buses each with three different companies.

Same with things like RTPI, Leap/Next Gen ticketing, bus tracking systems, etc.

To be honest growing up in Cork, it is hard to explain just how terrible BE bus services were, the DB of even 20 years ago were night and day better then them! These are the genius who decided to get rid of double decker buses in Cork and replaced them with single deckers!

It is good that the best practices from Dublin like Double Decker buses, dual door buses, etc. are being spread to Cork and the other cities.

Standardisation is good, that is why the Luas is so successful and now Luas and DART are coming to Cork too.

Jamie2k9

I can see some benefit for buses however I can’t see the elimination of Irish Rail or LUAS brands taking off with the public.

TFI should focus on other priorities.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123578137#Comment_123578137

Does it really matter if its on the side of the trains ?

Plenty of more important things to worry about.

icdg

Absolutely, you can say the average person doesn’t really mind what colour the train is or whose logo is on it as long as they turn up and run on time.

But on the other hand, the public transport network has never been better signed. I remember when the only signage at my local train station was the old 1980s style uni bar sign with the name of the station - one at each end of the platform. Hey I actually knew one station near me that had a sign on the outside of the station telling you the name of the station! That’s basic in other countries but believe it or not was unusual in Ireland until well into the 2000s! We now have route maps, proper signage, wayfinding information - things that are basic in other counties but only now with the rollout of TFI has become standard in Ireland.

And yes, none of this will make the trains run on time. But it is very useful for those who aren’t familiar with the system. (Wasn’t too long ago when bus timetables only displayed departure times from the terminus, effectively making them useless for those without a very important piece of information not written down anywhere - how long it would take at any particular time of day given traffic conditions, the bus to get from the terminus to the stop. In other words the timetables were absolutely useless to all but regular users of the bus route in question).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123578501#Comment_123578501

Well the DART and Luas brands aren't going anywhere, they are excellent brands. And it looks like they are using the Luas brand for Cork now too. CACR is struggling for a brand, obviously DART and CART don't work.

The new DART+ fleet trains seem to be getting branded as "TFI - DART", with the Irish Rail logo in between. I really like the new livery on the new DART+ fleet, fresh and modern.

I could see future Luas being branded "TFI - Luas", though I agree the outside should stay brand free or at least very small brand.

I've not doubt people will just continue to call them DART and Luas.

The benefit of showing the TFI brand is to encourage people to use the centralised TFI apps and website, though execution needs to improve for them.

I think Leap is an excellent brand too and I hope it is continue to be used for the next gen ticketing system.

As an aside, I think they missed a trick by not using Leap for everything instead of TFI. TFI is a bit wordy. Instead imagine "Leap Bus", Leap DART", "Leap Luas" and leap.ie being the central app and website for all the services as well as the ticketing.

Kind of like the Bee Network in Manchester, Leap network for Ireland.

We have great brands with Leap, Luas and DART. Dublin Bus was pretty solid too, but they missed out by not allowing it to be used for all bus services. I'm a bit ambivalent about transportforireland.ie

cml387

Nobody who had to travel on CIE in any of its guises through the years should mourn its passing . A service that was run almost entirely for the benefit of the staff, with passengers a necessary inconvenience.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123578779#Comment_123578779

Wouldn't be a big fan of the Bee Network branding or the Leap network as you propose. All just sounds a little bit cringe if you ask me.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123578888#Comment_123578888

I was just looking at their website, there is a lot there do a lot better then us (though some worse).

First of all they have contactless ticketing.

And they have a single App, that does both ticketing and journey planning in one very nice modern looking app. Basically it does the same as our TFI Live, TFI Go and Leap app in one! And the journey planning side looks far more modern and nicer then our shocking looking TFI Live app, looks like the Transit app.

However their tickets are only 60 minutes and I think bus only. Also only single door buses.

I do think their branding is a bit too yellow pack looking overall. I prefer our liveries.

To be honest I think leap.ie would be a damn sight better then transportforireland.ie! It sucks that we didn't at least get tfi.ie or tfi.com! I really don't see anything "cringe" about leap. It is a solid brand that makes sense for public transport (Leap on the bus, etc.).

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123578912#Comment_123578912

Sure nearly every operator in the UK uses accepts Contactless now and has done for some years now. It is quite simply an absolute disgrace that it has taken this long to roll out Contactless in Ireland. Pretty much every European country I've been to since Covid has had it.

Bus Times is far superior than any TFI app. The name of the website would be the least of my worries as it's an absolutely rubbish website.

I believe the reason why they use single door buses in most places in Manchester is because a lost of the bus routes in Manchester use bus stations where the bus has to reverse out of a stand kind of similar to Busaras.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123578981#Comment_123578981

In fairness, Bee Network only lunched contactless two months ago! So no they haven't had it for years! Though I do agree it is taking us too long.

Interestingly they are using Ticketer ticket machines. Though I do think the customer facing screen on that ticket machine and validator is small and outdated looking. I've seen better from other companies. The validator they use on their trams looks great, with a large colourful screen.

Bus Times is far superior than any TFI app. The name of the website would be the least of my worries as it's an absolutely rubbish website.

Bus times is great for us transport nerds, but not good for most regular people. It is great if you already know what route to take and just want to check if the bus is coming. BTW Google Maps and Transit app do this too.

Bus times doesn't have a journey planner, nor does it do ticketing or transport updates (route changes, etc.). It really doesn't help a tourist who needs to figure out what us to get. And of course it doesn't cover Luas and DART either.

What the Bee app does is exactly what I've been saying for years that we should do with a single TFI app.

One app with a great and easy to use journey planner, realtime info for stops and buses, transport updates, ticketing.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579063#Comment_123579063

Irish Rail and Luas feature on it. Even Aer Lingus Regional, flights and ferries to the likes of the Arann Islands feature on it now. I think almost all PSO services feature on it now at this point it should probably renamed TransportTimes as opposed to BusTimes. Agree re lack of journey planner though.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579113#Comment_123579113

Cool, though it looks like it isn't actually tracking any vehicles on Luas or DART, maybe they are still working on adding those or they are currently offline. I wouldn't really call it very useful at the moment for those services.

Gold7

The TFI Live app is better than what we've had before, the 90 Minute Leap Fare has been a big gamechanger were you can travel much further in Dublin with one leap fare, before all of that it was 2 two separate fares. One thing that could be improved is you still have have to look up timetables on separate websites for DB and GA. That should be on one website. The Real time app is however have been a big improvement for interchanging between TFI bus Routes.

PixelCrafter

One thing they should do in Ireland is have something like a P reg for public transport vehicles. It always seems weird to have this thing of registering busses with local number plates then transferring them to a different city. Loads of L and G plates in Cork at the moment etc and people seeing them as "hand me down" busses as opposed to just being moved around urban the networks for operational reasons.

It would also make the plates shorter. No reason why you couldn't just have P AB 123 to register ALL busses in Ireland. They should be short and easy to identify for customer feedback reasons, same as a train carriage number etc.

Or even 252-B-1234 for busses, A for ambulances, maybe P for Garda cars etc.. anything public service that has to be non-geographic. Just avoiding county letters.

It's minor but it does just seem a bit weird the way we do it at the moment.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579296#Comment_123579296

I'd recommend you give the "Transit App" a try. It has all the same data as TFI Live, but it has a much nicer interface. Also it uses data from other app users to make it's potion data more accurate then TFI Live.

L1011

not quoting the posts as they're not entirely on the topic - but I'm pretty certain that DB Travel90 tickets still actually exist; with one sole purpose and only two or three retailers - sold at the shops in the Airport for people who have no coins or Leap card. I've seen someone using one relatively recently.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579390#Comment_123579390

Surely they'd just buy a leap card and put a fiver on it then get a refund on the amount they didn't use.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579404#Comment_123579404

People will pay for what they perceive to be convenience.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579390#Comment_123579390

That is mad! But found one from two years ago:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=a135fd767cff278f&channel=entpr&q=dublin+bus+travel+90+ticket&udm=2&fbs=AIIjpHxU7SXXniUZfeShr2fp4giZ1Y6MJ25_tmWITc7uy4KIejIPgyyGM1YJJNz-u26A7UQjdzW_3QjQoz5M3kGxMbP-2YdUyEI1swjDCAqceDRq1t33D25_6kH_N99e49pHZk8kNYBEBqK4wx5EA5K20_FWa4E21SC13yl8EKd50S6fY56HQb2ALYxBdnn45UV39iA5sKj-O9v1rBmUoC0jTaF19YcIbA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiQ8JW2qI2OAxWHYEEAHYwIKewQtKgLKAF6BAgVEAE&biw=1938&bih=1022&dpr=1#vhid=wzkS8pCutcb1oM&vssid=mosaic

The comments on the Reddit thread are pretty funny, telling them to just get a Leap card!

Apparently they were €3.30 back in 2021, pretty poor value!

https://www.alamy.com/public-transport-ireland-hand-holding-a-travel-90-bus-ticket-issued-by-dublin-bus-in-dublin-ireland-commuting-concept-image431892332.html

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579569#Comment_123579569

Obivously just be the same price as paying cash

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058417806/whats-the-deal-with-the-tfi-brand

This sounds almost conspiracy theory-esque, but hear me out: I've been wondering for a while if wiping out BE, and so destroying the unions power, is part of the whole plan.

BE used to be the default operator for regional and stage-carriage services. Now, new ones are mostly managed by Local Link. Originally LL did mainly social-service door to door services. But they're increasingly getting larger 7-day, multi-departures per day, fixed routes.

You cannot buy tickets or book seats on BE website any more - any I've not see anyone complain about that. (You can buy Expressway, but nothing else.)

"Galway Bus Station" is now two ticket machines, two information screens, and a sign on the Mocha Beans stall saying "sorry we can't answer questions about buses". There's still an inspector's office where you can ask about lost property - but it's not signposted. (Ok- maybe this is due to the Ceannt Station refurb and it may reopen. But it feels like no one is even complaining.)

Wouldn't surprise me to see BE effectivley disappear. (Maybe they'll stick around a school-transport service or suchlike.)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579987#Comment_123579987

I really do think that what you’ve posted is nothing more than a conspiracy theory.

Look at what is happening under the Connecting Ireland project. It isn’t just Local Link expanding.

Bus Éireann are focussing on city & town services, regional commuter services, and still operating key corridor PSO routes.

What is going to Local Link are the once or twice a week bus routes that Bus Éireann operated traditionally, and they are being expanded using smaller vehicles to operate multiple services 7 days a week in most cases.

But at the same time there have been plenty of Bus Éireann PSO routes (outside of the towns and cities) that have expanded all over the country as well.

The 100, 167, 168, 170, 187, 190, 243, 245, 270, 272, 275, 279, 314, 316, 317, 323, 328, 329, 330, 332, 333, 336, 343, 345, 354, 355, 360/a, 419, 420, 421, 422, 423, 424, 425a, 440, 446, 450, 456, 458 and 466 are all examples of local and regional PSO Bus Éireann routes across the country that have seen frequency increases in recent years, with extended operating hours and all now operate services seven days a week.

The 101, 103, 105, 109, 109a, 109b, 109x, 111, 111a, 115, 131 and 133 are examples of commuter routes in the Greater Dublin area that have also been expanded.

We are roughly halfway through the Connecting Ireland project rollout - there are plenty more Bus Éireann services that are set to expand over the next few years - the 132, 350, 370 and 425a are all due to be improved in the not too distant future.

The routes listed above have all seen significant increases in passenger numbers, so no, Bus Éireann is not about to disappear, it’s still growing.

As far as ticketing is concerned, the reality is that LEAP and the TFI GO app now both offer the cheapest fares for all PSO bus services all across the country and the drive is to push people onto those options.

whisky_galore

How did they manage to get away with a copy/paste job on Transport For London Ireland and in ENGLISH only for what is supposed to be an Irish public entity?

Aren't they all supposed to be pushing for Irish only and bilingual names?

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123579063#Comment_123579063

I actually found Bustimes very useful when I was in Donegal recently.. just typing in the name of a place quickly showed me which Local link goes there. So it can be handy for tourists too.