Security on the Dublin Metro?

Kermit.de.frog

These are just my opinions on completely barrier free access to the metro and I would like to know what the security plan is.

Firstly I think a barrier free system is a mistake in Dublin. This is proposed for ideological rather than thought out practical purposes.

The reality is we have a serious anti-social behaviour, addiction and homeless problem in Dublin due to lack of policing, judiciary etc…you see it on the streets of the city center every day. As proposed there won't even be turnstiles for tickets.

The first thing that will be noticed is vandalism of the stations. Guaranteed. That's baked in from day one.

Second thing is the little scrotes and junkies will have their free transport much like the red line Luas which currently have some burly men to escort them off only for them to board the next tram because that security has no power of detainment. What better than putting this underground? And what about pick pocketing and other crimes?

The third thing is potential terrorism. Has this been factored in at all?

My question is what are the proposed security arrangements here for the metro?

Can those who back barrier free access reassure those of us who have serious security concerns about this?

Those who support barrier free have every right to do so but I worry this will be a big "I told you so" if/when Metrolink ever opens.

They need to reassure us as to what the plan is for security. I don't see how barrier free is possibly reconcilable with these concerns.

To be clear even with barriers like the DART the same problems occur but at least there is a barrier, a deterrent, otherwise it would be much worse.

What do you think?

exiledawaynothere

completely agree. In fact - draft up a letter and I will send to my TDs - even the Scrote loving ones.

scrabtom

Disagree, antisocial behaviour isn't stopped by barriers it's stopped by an active security presence.

So save the money on building stations with space for barriers and just invest in transport police that you need anyway.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123566239#Comment_123566239

Feel free to use the OP for material. I honestly can't believe they think barrier free is a runner.

Kermit.de.frog

Here is a question - will the stations be closed at night after the last trains?

exiledawaynothere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123566271#Comment_123566271

of course not. Do gooders will give homeless tents and sleeping bags and it will become an extra shelter

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123566275#Comment_123566275

I have seen undergrounds closed at night across Europe for obvious reasons.

Idbatterim

If its ever built, we will have robocops around to patrol it...

goingnowhere

We are obsessed with barriers in Ireland (and the UK) but mainland Europe mostly doesn't care. Barriers are a joke in Paris.

No barriers in Prague, Budapest, Vienna, Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt…

Good design, visible staff and security presence with effective revenue control inspections is what you need.

KrisW1001

The bigger issue with antisocial behaviour is small, enclosed carriages. This gives troublemakers a private place to harras other passengers or cause damage.

When walk-through trains were introduced in London , antisocial behaviour incidents dropped dramatically. Metro will have fully walk-through trains.

Ticket barriers are a waste of time, space and money. Much better to spend that on enforcement.

NIMAN

The metro will never be built, so no need to worry.

spillit67

I’d agree. People point to the engineering swoon of not having barriers but that does not meet with reality.

riddlinrussell

The issue isn't 'barriers vs no barriers' it's a combination of factors such as enforcement, general societal norms in the location, deprivation etc

New York Subway has absolutely colossal barriers and it does absolutely nothing to prevent completely wild behaviour on their metro. Meanwhile multiple places in Europe simply have decent enforcement and on board ticket checks.

Probably they have a transport police with detainment powers, which is almost certainly needed here.

There has previously been discussion on here about anti social behaviour on our transport and tmstats posted up indicate that the one transit mode we have with barriers (Dart) has a higher incidence of ASB than Dublin Bus or Luas, both for which have some form of 'enforcement' in the form of drivers (bus) and regular RPO (luas)

Zebra3

We’re at the very least 10 years away from any operational metro which is running years behind schedule already and this is what some are worried about? 😂😂😂😂

Busman Paddy Lasty

The one thing that always foils terrorism. Not having a Leap card or a bit of change for an aul barrier.

bk

The NTA publish a report into the rate of anti social behaviour by transport operator. And Irish Rail have by far the highest rate of anti social behaviour, like 10 times higher then Dublin Bus and 3 times higher then Luas!

Of course Irish Rail use gates, but they clearly don't work!

The idea that someone who wants to cause trouble won't just hop a gate or pay the princely sum of 65c is laughable!

Looking at the stats, it is clear to me that the rate depends on how present a member of staff is on the vehicle. Bus typically has the lowest level as every bus has a driver. Luas and trains obviously have a driver, but they are more separated from the passengers. However Luas tends to have a higher level of security and ticket checkers on board then rail and that is reflected in the numbers.

Gates are a complete waste of time, they aren't stopping anyone getting on, active security and ideally a transport police on trains and trams is what reduces incidents.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123566733#Comment_123566733

BART in the San Francisco area has installed larger barriers in addition to an increased enforcement presence. Initial results indicate that the two together are proving beneficial.

It’s worth noting that they came about as a result of two things. Rampant fare jumping, and mob robberies, where up to 70 people would jump the gates, ‘’raid’ a train quickly, and escape quickly before enforcement could do anything about it.

riddlinrussell

Roving gangs of robbers 70 strong isn't a transport infrastructure problem, that's a total societal collapse problem

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123570182#Comment_123570182

There is objective evidence on the impact of barriers, they absolutely work. They don’t eliminate but they reduce. Please stop pretending otherwise.

The question is whether the balance is right. There are drawbacks to them from an operational perspective.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123570947#Comment_123570947

Again- most Irish Rail stations are not barrier zones. Further- take on passengers on longer journeys which induces more complaints naturally.

There is objective evidence on the impact of barriers. I can post all of the studies and how other cities have coped with it.

The question is of balance between having a cheaper system. IMO Metrolink is designed by those who swoon over Copenhagen but don’t appreciate that we don’t have a culture like there. The fact that it leads to a cheaper headline price I am happy with (just get it built, I’m happy to keep quiet), but like Luas we will inevitably require far more operational costs than envisaged to secure the lines.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123571037#Comment_123571037

But we deal with the reality of the societies we live in. We are not Denmark or Germany (although as someone pointed out here before, the barrier free stops don’t exactly work there either). Engineers seem to forget this, we are human being who fit into a society, not just a game of numbers.

Timesheet

I eagerly await the day when I read of antisocial behaviour on the metro, it will mean it is finally constructed.

But mobs of 70 is fairly wild.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123570999#Comment_123570999

I’ve posted the studies on this, you’ll still get the wonks denying it.

I wish they would just argue the toss rather than denying reality. The question is if the high infrastructure costs (more difficult station design and the physical infrastructure plus requirement to have more manned stations) is worth it vs. more unmanned stations but easier pubic access and also cheaper design.

IMO it’s inevitable that we will need to massively upgrade whatever assumptions the wonks have made in their ML assumptions. I don’t mind that tbh, I’d rather just get it built. But if we are going to have an honesty conversation, it’s a consideration.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123571311#Comment_123571311

I've posted the official stats from the NTA, are you ignoring them!

Irish Rail, who have gates, have 3 times as many anti-social issues as Luas who have no gates (but more security).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123571311#Comment_123571311

Also you won't be able to put gates on Metrolink. The stations where specifically designed without gates. The platforms and concourse are narrow, with the design concept being that people won't be spending much time in the station, trains arrive every 90 seconds, people pour out of the station or won't be waiting long on the platform.

There isn't enough space for gates, it would just cause a dangerous bottleneck and no way would it pass safety standards. So you will need to forget about it for Metrolink, it isn't changing now that it has gone to ABP.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123571304#Comment_123571304

But we are like those countries, Ireland is a western European country, with very low crime rates. Our murder rate is actually slightly lower then Denmark, though very slightly higher then Germany. So right in about those.

There isn't anything particularly unusual about Ireland compared to those countries. We are literally ranked as the second safest country in the world. We are a pretty socially normal Western European country.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123571357#Comment_123571357

Certainly one of the lowest homicide rates in the EU… but violent assaults here as of recently was the fourth highest in the EU. We are not a beacon of excellence in terms of other crimes either.

If I see it as a free for all scobie fest of people just not paying and blanket non enforcement I’ll just not pay. Nor should anyone else. If they maintain they can’t fit gates at the stations their should be human enforcement…

riddlinrussell

For the record I never argued gates don't work, just that they aren't some magic bullet of security.

The key point is that in Ireland the record has shown worse outcomes in what is (more or less) a barrier only system.

I suspect this is because "We have barriers, we don’t need enforcement, staff are expensive" is exactly the mindset I'd expect here, so most likely outcome of adding barriers to any system here would be a reduction in enforcement volumes.

My argument was that you need to get the mix right not that barriers shouldn't be in that mix.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123566653#Comment_123566653

We better have good barriers so.

Ash.J.Williams

It's not cost effective to build a house , we will never have a metro

PixelCrafter

We might want to actually issue a tender for the construction of a metro before getting down to the minutiae of fantasy ticketing systems.