Cat and foxes, should I be worried?

magicbastarder

i don't think 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' quite works in these circumstances.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514372#Comment_123514372

Of course it is. If the cats hunting ground for rodents is some fields or a farm then controlling the rodent population with less need for kill all poisons then that is a net benefit for everyone and everything.

One of Rats favourite food this time of year are bird eggs, the less of those vermin roaming the better. Better it done "naturally" too.

OP.

Very rare a fox will go near a cat.

magicbastarder

so you're saying that the effect of cats on the rodent population (in terms of the knockon effect on rats predating on eggs) outweighs the effect of cats on the bird population?

colour me sceptical. unless you have a link to research to that effect.

magicbastarder

fWIW i do accept that in certain specific circumstances, predation by rats can be an issue (e.g. with ground nesting birds), but i remain highly sceptical about the general point.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514416#Comment_123514416

Yes. There is published research. But if you are cat owner who allows their cat outside you wouldn't need them. Cats will bring back significantly more vermin than birds.

10 to 1, in some studies even higher in others.

From my experience 20/30 to 1.

magicbastarder

that's not what i asked about, though; i asked about the balance of the effect.

it could well be that cats predate ten times as much on rodents than they do on birds; but that statement in and of itself says nothing about whether the net effect for birds is actually a positive one.

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514444#Comment_123514444

For what it's worth, my cat has never brought back any rodents ever.

I'd say he's 7:0 in birds:rodents

magicbastarder

amusingly, one of our cats, who has never paid a blind bit of heed to the TV before, attacked it last night during Springwatch when there was footage of magpies being shown. the TV is OK, thankfully, but she nearly knocked it down.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514416#Comment_123514416

Humans effect on birds environment, habitat has a far greater effect on birds than cats. Why most society for birds aren't that more bothered about the habitat changes than they are about cats. (Apparently).

There's far more birds killed by feral cats than domestic cats. Because the feral population is much bigger. Humans caused the feral cat population. Dunno if there's more feral cats than other predators in rural environment. Because most articles talk about urban areas where there more cats than foxes.

The point was that it's a vulnerable time for fleglings (due to nature being stupid) kinda getting lost here.

Worrying about domestic cats is not seeing the wood for the trees.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514472#Comment_123514472

It's not just birds. Less rodents especially Rats is good for the entire ecosystem.

We have several examples of islands eradicating feral cats which ended up being more detrimental to the native bird populations and other species.

A pair of breeding rats can have 100s of millions of descendants in a very short amount of time, 2-3 years. Rabbits and snake populations can get out of hand very quickly too if you eradicate their only predator.

The idea that if we just kept cats indoors, birds will flourish doesn't have a foothold in reality.

Cats have been domesticated for millennia.

feartuath

It would take a very brave or hungry fox to tackle a cat.

Cats are fierce with their claws if cornered and will take the eyes out of a fox or dog.

Cats are quick and will climb or jump onto anything to escape from any predator.

We have a well fed farm cat here which unfortunate does take birds from time to time.

magicbastarder

We have several examples of islands eradicating feral cats which ended up being more detrimental to the native bird populations and other species.

any case studies you have to hand which don't focus on ground nesting birds? as i acknowledged above, predation by rats (and foxes etc.) will be a definite threat to those.

Vizzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514531#Comment_123514531

It was probably reacting to that fool, Chris Packham.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514573#Comment_123514573

of course habitat loss is the biggest issue for birds - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about cats (be they domestic or feral) and their effect on birds; especially in urban areas.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514477#Comment_123514477

google's AI results claim that studies have shown that urban cats prey more on birds than rodents; but irritatingly, it's cited an article which is paywalled so i can't confirm that (i don't usuall trust the AI results)

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514610#Comment_123514610

Rats are able to scale vertical walls. Nests in trees is no problem to them.

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514655#Comment_123514655

Honestly, I think it depends on the urban area where you live. My brother-in-law's cat brings mice home nearly once a week but has only brought one bird back and he lives in an urban area too.

Hopefully all that means is there less mice and rats where I live, but more than likely my cat is just a worse hunter. He like yours once tried to attack the tv but just misjudged his leap and landed on the mantlepiece.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514655#Comment_123514655

AI is garbage.

Cats natural prey is small rodents and birds. Not Rats. They will catch young smaller rats. But generally avoid them. Also a lot of people feed birds in urban areas bringing them into the range of cats.

So the stats are misleading. Your comparing something they usually avoid with their main prey birds and the later is compromised by human feeders.

There's are 2 or 3 or 4 times the number of feral cats to domestic ones.

Certain dogs are much better at keeping rats down than cats. Apparently.

magicbastarder

I said small rodents; not rats.

I'm not the one making the argument that they keep the rat population down to the net benefit of birds!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514583#Comment_123514583

A closed ecosystem will be much more effected by what's in the ecosystem. Australia is greatly effected by the number of ground based animals with no other predators.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514869#Comment_123514869

Actually I'm what I quoted you said rodents not small rodents. But the point is it leads to people (and AI) mis interpreting the stats. So when reading articles you have to read between the lines on this.

Changing human behavior will have more effect on birds than domestic cats.

Cats do also kill rats.

holliehobbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514872#Comment_123514872

Have you seen the videos of rats in Australia a while ago? They were literally everywhere. It was unbelievable. And they couldn’t do anything to stop them.

Flinty997

I did

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123516128#Comment_123516128

That seems unrelated to cats.

MojoMaker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123514444#Comment_123514444

Can you link us to this research please @Boggles

magicbastarder

from one study (US focus):

We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually. Un-owned cats, as opposed to owned pets, cause the majority of this mortality. Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previously thought and are likely the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for US birds and mammals.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

Flinty997

That's not really a study that's a speculative estimation.

Not that's it might not be correct. But it might be way off.