Build a shed or Summer Graze

red_diesel

I am almost 50 and I've only started farming in my own name this year.
Normally I buy 40 - 50 store cattle the backend of the year, keep for one winter then either finish or send to the mart the following year.
I have 50 acres, all in one block. The problem in the wintering facilities. They date from the early 80's and not really suitable for store cattle, and most likely not compliant with current nutrient store standards.

Manure storage is a dungstead. There is a cubicle house and 20 cattle are housed here. Needs to be scraped daily into the dungstead (time consuming and labourious). The rest of the cattle are kept in a straw bedded house (also time consuming and labourious + straw very expensive).
Notwithstanding the winter labour issue, I believe the main problem is that if I were inspected my slurry storage would be deemed inadequate.

A no frills 4 - 5 bay slatted shed would suffice I believe for the amount of cattle I keep. Without getting into detailed costings, is it financially worth looking into building a shed for this size of operation for what you make from 40 -50 cattle? Or is it more realistic to look to a summer grazing operation?

All opinions welcome!

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058409887/build-a-shed-or-summer-graze

would automatic scrapers work in the cubicle house, is there access for a straw blower to the dry bed shed. I’ve seen people with similar setup to you add a slatted apron in front of the cubicle and dry bed sheds.

red_diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123443380#Comment_123443380

I don't think a straw blower is an runner as I've only the one tractor and I wouldn't be able to keep the blower on all the time. Also, its the cost of the straw is the bigger issue. On the auto scrapers, yeah it would work but I'd need to build a tank in front to scrap into. I think though that in itself is a big project and at the end of it, whilst you might improve your nitrate compliance, you would still have a setup that is laborious and I wouldn't be happy with. I should add the bedded house is in an old (100 year old) barn with a leaky roof and corroded H girders.

cute geoge

At 50 do you think a shed is a good investment ,could you put that money into buying a extra field .

It depends if you think you will have someone coming after you to farm,

I put up a good size shed when i was 25 ,it has it self paid for but I think if I bought a field and cheaply did a handy tank in front of older sheds ,i would have been as well off. 26 years on shed needs continouse maintenance ,storms damage costs 1000 this year ,eve shoots need replacing,

A 4 bay shed nowadays will cost eye watering price ,but you might be able to do some of the work yourself but if everything is contracted it is massive cost

older by the day

Bit by bit, you could do a tank and slats this year and complete the job, when you have the cash.

Or go down tams route 40% and you will have your vat back. Which is probably the way to go. If you have outside income then you benefit from a nice tax saving over the seven years,

I have never met a fella yet, who regretted building a slatted house. Times are expensive but making life easier, it will be worth it.

red_diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123443517#Comment_123443517

Am I correct in saying that there is now a 60% TAMS grant, regardless if you are a young farmer or not, for a new tanks and slats?

QA1

if you bought 50 cattle last backend go ahead an dig the hole put up 4 bay 16 slat no roof last years cattle will pay for it job done

somofagun

red diesel….I was in a similar situation as yourself and I built a 4 bay cattle house onto the side of the silo with u/ground tank & slats about 4 years ago. Best thing I ever did, having to scrap & bed cattle every other day before or after work was time consuming especially with work and young family. It has left things a lot easier and safer to do which is priceless these days.

baxterooneydoody

If you're making money or see yourself making money by doing it, build it. If not keep doing what you're doing.

red_diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123443854#Comment_123443854

I'm at that fork in the road where its either build or change to summer grazing. It is not practical or sustainable to continue wintering as I currently am.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123443953#Comment_123443953

Why is it not practical or feasible, is it financial or work related

somofagun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123443953#Comment_123443953

You will make nothing at summer grazing

red_diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123443964#Comment_123443964

I guess to me its not practical or feasible. Mainly as I work fulltime (2 days in the office which is 2 hours door to door each way and soon to be 3 days in the office) and have a young family. If I had cattle on slats I'd just need to push in silage. With current setup I need to scrape, clean cubicles and bed cattle. Those bits take an hour each day.

However as I said in my original post my main issue is the outdated dungstead/slurry storage and the fact it is not up to current regs. Trying to keep the rainwater out and control runoff is a big problem for me.

WoozieWu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123444039#Comment_123444039

if you plan on farming for the next 10 years and can afford it do the shed with a deep wide tank and the ability to feed out both sides

turn the straw bedded area into your handling set up and enjoy your extra free time

dmakc

I would go 60% TAMS for slatted tank, then you might be able to roof and put feed barriers for 40% separately on another application. Best to chat a farm advisor and get the TAMS application in now anyway.

You'd need planning with the TAMS route, although this might change by year end. I've seen lads go non-TAMS route without planning, no issues as long as you're good with your neighbours.

Either way I think the shed is the way to go, as someone said you never meet someone that regretted it.

Siamsa Sessions

I was in a similar position, needing to build slurry storage, and I ended up putting in a parlour and milking cows - so be very careful when you start building 😂

I’ll send you a DM with some figures, but even now, after the hassle of getting started with cows, I’m delighted with the slats and yard layout. I don’t think you’ll regret spending on upgrading.

Remember too it’s essentially cost neutral as you can write off the cost against tax over 7 years. The money is still gone but you’ve given it to a builder and have a nice yard rather than giving it to the tax man who’ll give you nothing in return!

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058409887/build-a-shed-or-summer-graze

built a 4 span suckler shed here in 2018. 14’6” and 9 foot tank. Slurry storage sorted overnight.

Absolute game changer in terms of quality of life. Similar circumstances as yourself with work and young family. Apart from times when cows calving, foddering is done in 10 minutes and actually would really only need to go to the shed every second day if I wanted.

You won’t regret putting up a shed. And consider doing it over 2-3 years as others have said if money is a bit tighter.

Bass Reeves

@red_diesel building a shed is a no brainer. Take it you build to TAM costings. Not sure if the costings of a 4 bay but let's say 90k Inc vat.

Claim.vat back shed is costing 79.3k now. TAMS @40% brings it to 47.6 k.

You can now accelerate the write down if slurry storage. Which will be about 50% of cost. Not sure if you can off set you grant against shed only and accelerate total.cost of shed but we will work with the 50%

This Give you 11k approx of allowances for three years at the high tax rate and about 3k the other 5 years.

Allow another 5kish for planning application and a interest for bridging finance

Hoping to put another shed starting late this year. I am 63.

StevenToast

Convert to organic beef....keep doing what you are at but do less of it.....

kk.man

Sheds are game changing you won't regret.

mr.stonewall

Building a shed seems to be a no brainer. If you enjoy your farming, it will make the winter so much easier. @red_diesel you mentioned you have a young family, with goo facilities it makes it easier to bring them with you to wet the appetite to farming in a safe fashion.

You also mentioned that you are part time as well. If you are at the higher rate of tax making uses of the new accelerated capital allowances would really help with tax bill. This will cover items namely the tank and slats and even scrapers. Well worth looking into it. Tams will really soften it further but will require planning. Might be worthwhile to put a plan together where you might complete the work over a few years to maximise the cap ex allowance and cashflow.

Look at any investment, in the light of will it save you time, will it leave you more profit and finally will it make life safer and compliant of regs. It seems to be ticking all boxes

Silverdream

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123445970#Comment_123445970

I say go Organic, then avail of the 60% Tams in organics. I would be borrowing the balance from the Bank and payback over 5 -10 years. You will then be able to use the capital allowances on your account, along with the loan interest, to keep the tax bill low. Most Organic farmers are already on a summer grazing system, Organic stores and Weanlens tend to be cheaper going into the winter due to lack of over wintering facilities on most of them farms. The real winners are those that can have the cattle for them to buy the first week of April.

Who2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446351#Comment_123446351

there’s too many already in organics. There’s a couple at home here that would have minimal but some inputs over the years who seemed to be doing a good job that have joined up and they aren’t overly enamoured with it. Personally it would be a last resort for me.

HHH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446250#Comment_123446250

You touched on an important point here. Making your own life handier with the new shed will massively encourage the next generation and they will be more likely to farm and be interested in it. Building the shed is a no brainer. Put a value on your own time mucking out the old sheds and it becomes a cheap investment.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446681#Comment_123446681

That was one of the reasons I invested as well - my young lads wouldn't realistically have the option to go farming unless I made some start on modernising the yard.

I won't ever be pushing any of them to go farming (easy to say when I'm 48 - ask me the same question when I'm 68!) but if they were interested, they'd have to take on debt from day-1 to give themselves a chance if I left things as they were.

Equally, if they don't and the place is leased, then there's a decent yard and slurry storage there to be rented out as well now.

V6400

The only problem you'll have with building a shed is that when you've it done you'll realise you should have went bigger.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447041#Comment_123447041

🤣🤣 so true

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123446351#Comment_123446351

You drop too much income going into organics. On good land unless you arecreally intonation organics is a waste of time. You either need to go into sheep or sucklers. Aa well you shed will be sized to an organic stocking level and has to be 50% straw bedded. Last year I was talking to a suckler farmer that did it and he coming back mouth when the five years is up

Castlekeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447418#Comment_123447418

Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity, (and cashflow is reality).

Why would one be dropping income?

Average grass production in Ireland is less than 10 tonne DM/ha, easily doable organically. Lots of conventional beef farmers not doing it.

It'd take a lot of extra stock income to amount to one's organic payment plus ones artificial fertiliser bill.

It's on good land that organic really makes sense.

(And put in cubicles for the cows).

cute geoge

how much extra payment for organics on 50 acres

StoutPost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123447923#Comment_123447923

Don't hold me to it but I think it'd be around €8,000 for the first two years including the participation payment of €2000, then it'd drop to I think €6,500ish for the last 3 years.

Organic feed is expensive. €425-450 for a ton of oats Jan/Feb this year, Around €650 for combi crop (Oats/peas/barley, and I got barley/beans later in the year).

I am reducing numbers to make more with less. It depends on the individual farm, what they're doing and how they're set up now.