Skorts.

appledrop

Under no circumstances should women or girls have to wear these ' skorts' if they are not comfortable in them.

They are athletics shouldn't have to look like women.

Skorts are not skirts with 'shorts' underneath. In fact what they are more like are slightly longer pants with the skirt part over it.

I can't post pictures but loads of them were looks like womens 'pants' are exposed because they barely cover tops of their legs.

It's just not acceptable in this day and age.

Mrs OBumble

I cannot imagine taking part in any hobby which policed my body to that extent. How every … victorian.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418565#Comment_123418565

A planet where women getting their rights doesn't diminish the rights of men.

growleaves

How are the delegates chosen, does anyone know?

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418688#Comment_123418688

You are making assumptions though based on incomplete research. That is the issue. The inherent bias is that the views of a very select group of the population is used to infer the opinion of the entire population.

If 20% of players (from a representative survey) found jerseys uncomfortable and restrictive and favoured sleeveless crop tops, should they become the standard attire?

Again, I don't play camogie, but "for pretty much zero reason" is another false statement. There was a reason, at some stage, for that rule in attire for that sport. But rules can and do change. The sporting body seems to have a process for changing rules. This process was followed. The rule change on attire was not adopted.

I mentioned earlier that I read a comment on twitter from a player who liked wearing the skorts as she found them less revealing than shorts. Maybe her view is the majority view of the 100,000 members? Who knows? (Nobody, as there is no research among the 100,000).

Should the association just allow shorts & skorts as preferred by players. Would this lead to some wanting to wear leggings? Is there any harm in players wearing different attire in the game? These are all questions for the membership.

This whole thing just seems to be about fashion. Which is fair enough. I don't see why it's dressed up (excuse the pun) as some kind of oppression.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418683#Comment_123418683

It's not a suggestion that you have it wrong - it is a fact that you have it wrong. You are fundamentally misunderstanding sampling theory as it relates to surveys.

You can't pick a niche subsection of a population and use their opinions as evidence of the opinions of the entire population (a la my exaggerated Cork/Liverpool examples). County players might be fully out of step, fully in step, half out/half in step, or somewhere in between all & any of these positions. But until the research is done, you can't say.

This survey can't be fairly used as evidence of the opinions of the 100,000 registered camogie players. I'm not even sure it can be representative of the county players as I can't see the methodology of how the sample was selected - all age groups? all counties? former/current players? self selecting respondents?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418839#Comment_123418839

i wouldn't be at all surprised if this was nothing more than a survey monkey link sent out to all qualifying and only the interested responded. If this was the case then its utterly rubbish data from a statistics standpoint but useful if it supports the "right" position.

I'd be shocked if there was a real polling company that obtained this data and used a proper methodology.

magicbastarder

Well, am I sorry I mentioned the survey. Whether or not it is scientifically rigorous has become a distraction. It's clearly enough of an issue that they actually considered it worthwhile polling their members in the first place. And that the entirety of both squads at an inter county game decided to take a stand on it at the risk of disciplinary action.

It's been mentioned several times that skorts simply aren't worn during training. That says enough in my book; in fact I'm amazed that the percentage of women who voted against having the choice in the poll was that high (though I don't know how much of the 17% may have been 'no opinion').

Again, I don't play camogie, but "for pretty much zero reason" is another false statement. There was a reason, at some stage, for that rule in attire for that sport.

We both know why the rule originally said women should wear skirts. Skorts are just a poor compromise.

Your conclusion that it's all 'just about fashion' comes across as weirdly patronising.

kneemos

If rival sides are communicating with each other to make a stand on skorts then the complaints are obviously valid.

Even if some don't mind wearing skorts or even if a majority want to wear skorts why aren't they given a choice? Think I know the outcome when they are.

magicbastarder

FWIW, until a few years ago, British Riding Club rules were that competitors in certain horse riding competitions (I think showjumping and dressage and the like) had to wear white jodhpurs. They changed that rule because it created problems for female riders.

Avatar in the Post

Cork/Liverpool examples are clearly biased and not nearly as biased as elite sports people in their code. The only difference is that the elite camoige players are more photographed. Stop dragging up something you learned in a college module 10/20 years ago and misusing it.

Anyway, waiting until 2027 clearly isn’t acceptable, and the players feel they needed to protest. It wasn’t the male refs fault following the rules, but the sex of the ref shouldn’t have been a factor in the players protesting either. This needs to change.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123417192#Comment_123417192

The man was implementing the rules laid down for the women players, by an association run by women. If he'd played on he probably would have been accused of misogyny.

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418807#Comment_123418807

This is the most important question.

How are the views of players so far removed from those of the delegates who have the power to implement/change these rules?

Cluedo Monopoly

The skorts will be gone within 5 years. Clubs need to get rid of the church loving old biddies that voted against the change. It's inevitable. Silly rule by camogie association. We have a dual club and the girls and ladies only wear them for games and they don't like them at all. It contributes to them giving up camogie.

AnnieinDundrum

a few friends who play and have daughters playing tell me that many players complain about it constantly
and I mean complain, not moan.

One is 60, she protested when she was younger about the skirts rules and has kept on banging that drum, along with lots of her friends. They play in spite of the restrictions. Actually they train in shorts and leggings and tracksuits etc. Whatever is appropriate for the weather and their desire that day.

We had to wear stupid divided skirts for school, I hated it. The most uncomfortable garment ever designed. I don’t think the skort is any better.

My friends and her fellow players are delighted to see the players bringing it to the newspapers.

Btw the head of the association is a man. Just saying. In terms of the poor publicity for the sport the optics aren’t great.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123419042#Comment_123419042

It is an important question because there is no evidence that the delegates opinions are far removed from the views of the players.

There are anecdotes and a survey of dubious methodology.

There was a protest in Dublin last weekend. Thousands turned up waving tricolours and some holding banners of trump, McGregor & Putin. Their message was Ireland for the Irish. The protest had a lot of coverage on social media & (less so) on TV & Radio. Their opinions created a stir but it is not the opinion of the majority of Ireland.

magicbastarder

I don't know why you're so focused on evidence in such a forensic way. Is the fact that there are protests and a survey not enough? (FWIW the survey seems to have been of intercounty players, so 650 is a good showing - that'd average over 20 players per county responding and that's not even allowing for the possibility that several counties do not field a camogie team).

If even 20% of players stated they want to be allowed play in shorts, they should allow it.

jackboy

Has anyone explained why the organisation is against the wearing of shorts?

magicbastarder

No official statement on that front that I can find. 'tradition' is what I'd guess

FWIW womens Gaelic football allows the use of shorts.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123419139#Comment_123419139

I'm focused on evidence because I hate seeing bad research being used as evidence. And the misunderstanding of poor research by some to push their agendas.

Your FWIW point being exactly what I'm talking about. 650 is not necessarily "a good showing" as an inference of the opinions of 100,000 registered members. You state it averages 20 per county but there is no evidence that there is any representative county spread in the respondents.

KaneToad

My speculation is that the majority of delegates are traditionalists and don't want a change to the playing attire. But, in reality, noone really knows the answer - without asking the delegates

breezy1985

If skorts were any good we would see them outside of places they are mandatory. They are seemingly never seen in camogie training and I didn't see any of the 1000's running the marathon in Limerick yesterday thinking a skort was worth wearing.

Thankfully clowns who use tradition as an excuse for everything are disappearing from the GAA and hopefully camogie will tell the higher ups to fuk off too.

magicbastarder

From reading around the topic this morning, camogie is not yet fully under the aegis of the GAA organisation.

https://camogie.ie/news/joint-statement-on-integration/

h2005

Do the association members know how their representatives voted when this was voted down previously? It would be helpful to have transparency so that members know their representatives are actually representing the views of the members.

Actually bananas that this needs a vote.

tarvis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418415#Comment_123418415

and surely the males have more that needs covering-

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418984#Comment_123418984

No he'd have been accused of breaking the rules which he would be doing.

The rules are a nonsense.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123419246#Comment_123419246

Some surely have 🙂

I wonder is there a specification laid down in GAA rules for men's shorts or knicks as the old timers called them.

magicbastarder

I guarantee you there will be an element which will claim it's sexist if the rules state the men must wear shorts.

Though for women's football, it mandates shorts, rather than just allowing them.

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418602#Comment_123418602

It's a private organisation imposing rules on its own members, with a democratic voting process for determining those rules.

Ladies football is governed by a different organisation and set of rules.

Similar to tennis, you can wear whatever colour you want in the French open but if you want to play in Wimbledon, you can only wear white. Their club, their rules.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123419139#Comment_123419139

Is the fact that the Camogie association voted on this last year not enough?

Is that not democracy? Or were they supposed to keep re-running the vote until they got the right answer?