Is it time to rethink the death penalty?

suvigirl

I don't think prisoners should be allowed do anything except wait their time out. Why should the taxpayer fund study placements? These people are in there for a reason. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

I just feel that if we want to rehabilitate prisoners and give them a chance at a different life when they are released, that work and study can do that. Give them something productive to do instead of just sitting around with other criminals studying how to commit more crime.

whisky_galore

It's almost always the shíttier kind of country with piss poor human rights record that still has the death penalty on the books.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340147#Comment_123340147

yeah; the 'i want to deny them a chance at making a legit living on their eventual release' is surely counterproductive?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340147#Comment_123340147

They can go and study after their time is served. It's not meant to be a holiday camp.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340309#Comment_123340309

Well it currently doesn't do anything about recidivism, which surely should be the main thing, if we are serious about reducing crime.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340309#Comment_123340309

so we should not entertain any notion of rehabilitation in the prison system?

skallywag

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123328056#Comment_123328056

I'm willing to wager your have never been in prison.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340152#Comment_123340152

Yup!

The problem with the death penalty is that humans are fallible, therfore the legal system is fallible. There's a stack of documentaries on Netflix right now about Legal cases where the Cops/Legal system absolutely f**ked up, and made very serious mistakes. Imagine sentencing someone to death and then discovering years later you made a mistake.

The 2nd thing is for "petty" crime, (It's not petty to the victim) I do think courses and education should be made available, to stop them reoffending. I don't know how that would work though as there does need to be a punishment element.

Maybe if you get 4 years for a crime and a course takes 2 years, you will be given the option after 3 years to start the course and stay in Prison and extra year to complete the course? (IE you do manadatory 3 years punishment)… could be a silly idea, I don't know.

I do think however people who are offered a course, say no, are released and then reoffend should be offered nothing.

The problem we have is that we don't have enough Prison spaces, and because the Prisons are so old and are completely unautomated, the cost of keeping a Prisoner is massive. The Prisons are effectively part of the infra of legal system/country and they have had no meaningful investment in the last 25 years (same as most other infra). The Prisons are also in the wrong place, They are built in expensive land in Town and cities. (why the Midlands Prison was built in the town is still beyond me 27 years later) The Prison capcity for men is around 4200, It ideally needs to be about 4 or 5 times that size.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340391#Comment_123340391

yep. People always say that the death penalty should be used only when we're certain that they are guilty. But the problem is that we use that standard for prison too. And we make mistake there. As you mentioned, people are fallible. And not just that, people deliberately frame others.

A good example is the Birmingham 6. That was a horrific crime. But a load of innocent people were stitched up for it. And they were found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, by a jury of their peers.

As for the rest, well yeah we need to do more to rehabilitate. Study after study has shown that countries that do this have a lower rate of reoffending.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340483#Comment_123340483

The Birmingham 6 are an even better example here - there was an attempt to refuse appeals because the judicial system didn't want to countenance that they were wrong.

"If they won, it would mean that the police were guilty of perjury; that they were guilty of violence and threats; that the confessions were involuntary and improperly admitted in evidence; and that the convictions were erroneous. ... That was such an appalling vista that every sensible person would say, "It cannot be right that these actions should go any further.""

It turns out that yes, the police were guilty of perjury, violence and threats; the confessions were forced and improper and the convictions were erroneous. But the judicial system stopped that appeal to protect itself.

For capital offences, the urge to protect the original decision will be even stronger and the risk of killing the wrong person increased.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340361#Comment_123340361

Exactly. Criminals don't rehabilitate. Murderers will reoffend. Pedos be pedos. Rapists be rapists etc.

lmk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123329015#Comment_123329015

I like you’re thinking, I think Rapists and child abusers should have a huge R tattoo on their forehead and let them free, whenever anyone sees someone with the tattoo they’re allowed do whatever they want to do, most probably wouldn’t survive the first day out. I don’t think there’s a punishment bad enough for rapists & child abusers.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340309#Comment_123340309

Well it is not a holiday camp and putting back on the streets without any attempt are rehabilitating then is guaranteeing society will be further impacted by them.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340538#Comment_123340538

And your response to anyone who was attacked by these people after you let them back on the streets without even trying to rehabilitate them would be - to bad so say, it's what I wanted?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340574#Comment_123340574

So, if they no longer existed, that would solve that problem… leading us to…

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123328956#Comment_123328956

The recidivism rate for dead criminals is 0%. Seems reasonable.

506972617465

My blood often boils and I have many creative ideas on what I'd do to someone who, say, kills a child.
But…

Does death penalty stop crimes? Nope, never did and never will. Can it be reversed in case of a mistake? Nope, never. Do mistakes happen? Yes, they do. A very few to be honest, but they do.
What we need is certainty. Certainty that a maniac will be caught and properly sentenced, and that if they get life, they get life. No "good behaviour" early release after X years. This is my opinion. If we kill a killer, are we not killers ourselves? Sometimes we don't have a choice, but here we do.

Hoop66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123329015#Comment_123329015

And, presumably, you'd be allowed to watch? In a private room with a box of tissues to hand?

lmk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340580#Comment_123340580

I don’t think they’d be able to attack anyone else to be honest

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340179#Comment_123340179

The Hug-A-Thug method. A resounding success in Ireland. Violent murderers, rapists and child abusers have feeling too y’know.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340731#Comment_123340731

Perhaps take a chance to educate yourself a little on recidivism and why Norway has the lowest rates in the world. See how they treat their prisoners.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340650#Comment_123340650

Just for the record Carlyle had 27 previous convictions and had already served time for Violent disorder. I don't know how much time, says three years but he probably got out after one. Alarmingly Disney had no previous conviction other that 2 road traffic offences… 48 seconds to destroy a large number of lives.

I agree with you in that the punishment is you are locked in a cell for the rest of your life.

If you condone the brutalisation of someone as a punishment for a crime, you're probably of the same mindset as the person that committed the crime. I do however understand if you were the victims friend/family that you might think that.

We do not know what convictions Disney or Carlyle may have gotten as juveniles (They were 23 and 26 at the time of the attack)

Again we need more Prison spaces, particularly juvenile spaces

Pauliedragon

The judge in the Guildford 4 trial said he wished he could have imposed the death penalty. How would that have worked out if they were executed.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123340339#Comment_123340339

The willingness to reduce recidivism is a two way street, why is it everyone else that gets the blame?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123342151#Comment_123342151

What do you mean? Who is getting the blame?

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123342160#Comment_123342160

Society isn't doing enough etc., at some point some people just need to be treated like serial pests. I would have no problem with a one time, non violent offender getting some different type of sentencing. But at some point scum bags will just take the piss and treat everyone else like a doormat.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123342171#Comment_123342171

I never suggested society isn't doing enough, obviously offenders are the ones to blame, no one else.

I just stated that when someone is incarcerated, there should be plans in place to rehabilitate the prisoner. Try to reduce recidivism rates, otherwise what's the point?

If these were in place and serial offenders don't take up those options and continue to offend on release, we could increase sentences based on that.

crusd

Fundamentally, no person should have the right to decide to end someone's life. In general, the more violent a society the likelier they are to tolerate the death penalty. The desire for revenge or retribution is entirely understandable however a society that opens the door to retribution as a solution opens the door to far more.

Also, it doesn't act as a deterrent. No one who commits the type of crimes that people suggest warrant a death penalty ever considers the potential punishment. In crimes committed in the heat of the moment the consequences are not a consideration. In premeditated crimes, they believe they can get away with it

My name is URL

I'm not gonna argue if it's a deterrent or not, but I find it limitlessly funny that those most in favor of allowing the state to take lives tend to be the same ones opposed to government overreach and abortions

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123348856#Comment_123348856

ah here in fairness there’s some difference between not condoning abortion and being in favour of the death penalty.

Being ambiguous to a criminal being executed and being opposed to a foetus being terminated are not mutually exclusive.

I’ve no strong feelings one way or the other with regard either. I suppose I’d be of the opinion women can do as they choose to each their own insofar as abortions and in my opinion some people certainly do need killing for the betterment of society they’re just better off dead.

I would likely not volunteer to be the one making such decisions nor would I particularly advocate for any change in the current laws here or elsewhere. I’d definitely have to give it considerable thought if it ever came to a vote though.