Is this seen as an acceptable reason to give notice to tenants ?

Appletreeblossom

Apologies for the long story -

My elderly parents are good landlords that have run into issues with tenants. First of all they are registered with PRTB and pay tax on the rent so are doing everything properly revenue wise.

Original tenancy contract not valid as original tenants no longer there - 4 in the house and when one moved out they arranged for a new tenant to move in - parents did not ever need to advertise. Everyone happy with the arrangement.

For the past year the current tenants have been nothing but a headache, late with the rent, not paying ESB bill on time (still in my Dad's name and nearly every month he gets a letter from the ESB so he needs to remind them to pay it), not maintaining house inside. House is let as a unit but some months he might only get 3/4 rent as one tenant would have a sob story. My Dad has probably been too lenient with them.

Parents have not opened any type of dispute with them and the RTB due to them probably just not having the time/energy because of various health issues (83 yrs old).

Come September, my daughter will be looking for new accommodation in the same city as my parents rental property.

RTB says one of the reasons for issuing a termination notice can be because of a family member moving in to the property.

My daughter is a student.

Can my parents issue the termination notice, do the property up (the house looks like it needs to be gutted, recarpeted, new furniture etc, bathrooms may need replacing) allow their granddaughter in to rent but rent the other rooms to her friends? Is this seen as a family member moving in?

Technically, a family member will be moving in but will be paying rent.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058404136/is-this-seen-as-an-acceptable-reason-to-give-notice-to-tenants

I'm pretty sure they can rent it to your daughter, their grand-daughter, the fact she sublets to her friends on a license agreement doesn't really matter.

Make sure the eviction notice is totally valid and above board, it doesn't sound like you'll be getting the security deposit back (or last months rent for that matter). Double check on the notice periods and put everything in writing.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058404136/is-this-seen-as-an-acceptable-reason-to-give-notice-to-tenants

the electricity should be in the tenants name. The tenants have no obligation to pay a bill in someone else’s name. And electric Ireland will chase up the account owner , not a tenant

L1011

I would not be reliant on them being out by September - notice periods are going to eat up a lot (realistically all, as I doubt they're only there a few months) of that even if they don't drag their heels about it.

152 to 224 days after the tenants are there 6 months up to over 8 years

Mrs OBumble

Get proper legal advise.

It's not even clear to me who a notice-to-quit should be issued to, if none of the current residents names are on the lease.

wildwillow

Plan on it taking at least 2 years. RTB will allow a tenant to dispute the notice long after the stated date and then will delay hearings for the slightest reason from the tenants. Also prepare to engage a barrister for the hearings.

It’s a win win situation for them.
Transfer the electricity account immediately. You just need to close the account and name the tenant as the new user.

Claw Hammer

Why don't you just serve warning notices for late rent and rent arrears and get them out that way? Why fart around with fairy stories?

iwilldare

Get legal advice on this but yes they can issue a termination notice if the property is needed by a family member. Make sure the termintion notice is water tight confirmed by a solicitor. Also serve them directly and via registered post. Put all the current names on the termination notice. Get the electricity and any other bills transferred to the tenants also, should not be in your parents name. Be prepared for a long battle unfortunately.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123303625#Comment_123303625

What has the name on the bills got to do with anything?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123303753#Comment_123303753

The person named on the bill is responsible for paying the bill, not the tenants.

Alarm bells already ringing if the landlord hasn't changed it over to the tenants name.

I had a tenant skip out on me before, leaving an €800 bill unpaid. I just transferred it back into my name and heard nothing more about it.

Sounds like they know they can take advantage of the landlord. Get them out.

burtner

Notice to vacate is given to Tenants on Tenancy agreement, they will also be the tenants registered with RTB ! So just give notice to those original tenants and send copy to RTB (even though they are not living there) They will not object within the allowed timeframe ! Anyone else living in house has no rights of tenure , should be plain sailing. at vacate date if they are still in house call gardai as they are just licensees and have no contract.

iwilldare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123303925#Comment_123303925

They are not licencees unless the owner is living in the property with them. Unfortunately as the op has said there has been correspondance with the current occupiers with regards to rent this can be construed as a rental agreement.

"For the past year the current tenants have been nothing but a headache, late with the rent, not paying ESB bill on time (still in my Dad's name and nearly every month he gets a letter from the ESB so he needs to remind them to pay it), not maintaining house inside"

OP also ensure that the RTB records reflect current tenants and not the original occupants

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123303805#Comment_123303805

This thread is a query about getting tenants out, not about ensuring utility bills are paid.
The o/p can serve a notice of breach of condition and for arrears of rent and get rid of the tenants quite easily. Why he wants to make up a story about his daughter is beyond me.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123304074#Comment_123304074

"Get rid of the tenants quite easily." 😂

Clearly you don't know much about being a landlord. You don't even know how electricity bills work. Landlord needs to take steps to protect himself. Have you even read the original post?

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123304074#Comment_123304074

LL would need to serve a warning first

tenants comply… then what?

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123303985#Comment_123303985

OP, it's a messy situation, so that's the first step - normalize the registration / legal situation

transfer bills to tenants

after that you can think about giving notice

but you need to think what will happen if some people move out immediately when you give notice, and others stay… you might have a few months with much reduced rent

anyway, the September timeline is unlikely

meijin

I think AI is getting quite good with the recommendations based on RTA (verify anything first though!)

1. Nature of the Current Tenancy

• Existence of Tenancy: Despite the departure of original tenants and their replacement by others (seemingly with the landlords' implicit consent through acceptance of rent and continued occupation), a tenancy subject to the Act undoubtedly exists with the current occupants.
• Part 4 Tenancy: Assuming the continuous occupation period by at least one of the current occupants, accepted by the landlord, exceeds 6 months since that acceptance, and no valid notice of termination was served and expired prior to the 6-month threshold being met, the tenants likely benefit from the security of tenure provisions under Part 4 of the Act (Section 28). The informal replacement of tenants does not, in itself, negate the accrual of Part 4 rights for the occupants accepted, even implicitly, by the landlord (See Chapter 6 of Part 4, Sections 48-53, regarding multiple occupants). The "original contract" not being valid concerning the specific named individuals does not invalidate the existence of a Part 4 tenancy held by the current occupants.

2. Grounds for Termination by Landlord

A landlord may only terminate a Part 4 tenancy on one or more of the grounds specified in the Table to Section 34 of the Act, following service of a valid notice of termination complying with Part 5 (Sections 62-69).

• Tenant Default (Ground 1, Table to S.34):
  • Failure to pay rent on time (Section 16(a)) and failure to maintain the dwelling's interior (Section 16(f)) constitute breaches of tenant obligations.
  • Termination on this ground requires the landlord to have first notified the tenant in writing of the breach and provided a reasonable specified period for remedy, which the tenant failed to meet (Ground 1(a) & (b)). Given the history of leniency and lack of formal notices, relying on this ground now would require initiating this formal process.
  • The ESB bill issue is problematic. If the bill remains in the landlord's name, non-payment by tenants might be harder to frame as a direct breach of tenant obligations under Section 16, unless the tenancy agreement explicitly requires timely reimbursement or transfer. It points more towards a management issue that needs rectification.
• Landlord Requires Dwelling for Family Member (Ground 4, Table to S.34):
  • Definition of Family Member: Section 35(4) includes a "grandchild" of the landlord. Therefore, the granddaughter qualifies.
  • Requirement for Occupation: The landlord must require the dwelling for the family member's occupation. The Act does not state this must be exclusive occupation. Requiring it for the granddaughter to live in, even if she subsequently has friends (as licensees or potentially co-tenants under a new agreement) reside with her, could potentially satisfy this ground.
  • Procedural Requirements: A notice of termination citing this ground must be accompanied by a Statutory Declaration (Section 34(a)(ii), Section 35(8) is relevant for format, though primarily for Ground 3). As per the Table to Section 34, Ground 4, this declaration must specify:
    • The intended occupant's identity (granddaughter) and relationship to the landlord.
    • The expected duration of the occupation.
    • Crucially, that the landlord is required to offer the dwelling back to the tenant if the dwelling is vacated by the family member within 12 months of the termination date, and the original tenancy had not otherwise been validly terminated by citing Grounds 1, 1A, 2, 3, or 6.
  • Bona Fides & Potential Abuse (Section 56): The landlord must genuinely require the dwelling for the granddaughter's occupation. If the primary purpose is perceived not as providing accommodation for the granddaughter, but rather facilitating a new letting arrangement to students generally (with the granddaughter merely being one tenant), the termination could potentially be challenged as an abuse of the Section 34 procedure, potentially leading to damages under Section 56. The plan to rent other rooms introduces this element of risk if not handled carefully, ensuring the primary requirement is genuinely for the granddaughter.
  • Student Status: The granddaughter's status as a student is relevant to the nature of her occupation but does not disqualify her as a family member under Section 35(4).
• Substantial Refurbishment (Ground 5, Table to S.34):
  • If the planned works (gutting, re-carpeting, new furniture, potential bathroom replacement) are so substantial that they require vacant possession, this ground could be invoked.
  • This requires a written statement accompanying the notice detailing the nature of the works. If planning permission is required, it must have been obtained and a copy attached. If planning is not required, specific details outlined in Section 35(9)(b) must be provided.
  • Furthermore, under Section 34(a)(iii), if citing Ground 5, the notice must now also contain or be accompanied by a certificate from a registered professional confirming the works pose a health and safety risk requiring vacancy for a specified period (minimum 3 weeks).
  • This ground also includes an obligation to offer the tenancy back to the tenant upon completion of the works if the conditions in Ground 5(b) are met.
  • Again, using this ground pretextually to gain vacant possession for the granddaughter's use could lead to a finding of abuse under Section 56.
• Intention to Sell (Ground 3, Table to S.34): This is not applicable based on the facts provided.

3. The Proposed New Arrangement

• Granddaughter as Tenant: A family member can occupy the dwelling and pay rent. This does not negate the validity of the Ground 4 termination, provided the initial requirement was genuine.
• Renting Rooms to Friends:
  • If the granddaughter becomes the sole tenant and her friends are her licensees, paying rent to her, this is arguably more consistent with the dwelling being required for her occupation.
  • If the intention is for the landlord to enter into separate tenancy agreements with the granddaughter and her friends, making them all direct tenants (multiple tenants under Chapter 6, Part 4), this could weaken the argument that the dwelling was required for the granddaughter under Ground 4 and might support a Section 56 claim by the previous tenants.
  • Student Accommodation Rules: If the dwelling, post-renovation, is let under new tenancies and meets the specific criteria under Section 3(1A) (used solely for providing residential accommodation to students during academic term times, with certain exceptions), then Part 4 security of tenure provisions would not apply to those new tenancies (Section 3(7)(c)). However, this relates to the future status and does not affect the validity requirements for terminating the current tenancy.

4. Notice Period

• Given the likely duration of the current de facto tenancy (incorporating periods of occupation by the accepted tenants, potentially treated as one tenancy under Section 64B), the notice period required under Section 66 will be substantial (likely 196 or 224 days if the continuous tenancy period exceeds 7 or 8 years, respectively, as per Table 1). The exact calculation depends on determining the commencement date of the continuous period of the Part 4 tenancy held by the current longest-standing, landlord-accepted occupant(s).

Advice

1. Validate Current Tenancy Status: Ascertain the continuous period of occupation for the current tenants accepted by the landlord to confirm Part 4 applicability and determine the correct notice period under Section 66. Section 64B is pertinent here, potentially treating successive related tenancies as one for notice period calculation.
2. Ground 4 (Family Member): This appears the most applicable ground stated.
   • Ensure the termination notice is accompanied by a meticulously drafted Statutory Declaration meeting all requirements of the Table to Section 34 (Ground 4) and Section 35, including the 12-month offer-back provision.
   • The landlords must genuinely require the property for their granddaughter's occupation. Documenting this intention is advisable.
   • Be acutely aware of the Section 56 risk. The subsequent letting to friends should ideally be structured legally (e.g., friends as licensees of the granddaughter) to minimise appearance of pretext, although this carries its own complexities. Direct tenancies between the landlord and the friends post-termination may invite scrutiny regarding the bona fides of the original Ground 4 termination.
3. Ground 5 (Refurbishment): If the renovations are genuinely substantial, require vacant possession for health and safety reasons (certified per S.34(a)(iii)), and the landlords are prepared for the offer-back obligation, this is an alternative. However, it must not be used solely as a means to install the granddaughter.
4. Procedural Compliance: Strict adherence to the notice requirements (Section 62), notice periods (Section 66/64B), and the specific requirements (Statutory Declaration/Statements/Certificates) for the chosen ground (Section 34/35) is paramount. Any procedural error can invalidate the notice. Section 64A allows minor slips or omissions if they do not prejudice materially and the notice otherwise complies, but reliance on this is risky.
5. Communication with Tenants: While formal notice is key, clear communication regarding the reason (family member requiring occupation) might manage expectations, though it doesn't alter legal rights.
6. ESB Bill: This should be rectified immediately. Either transfer the account to the tenants' names or include utility payment handling explicitly in future tenancy agreements.

Termination based on Ground 4 is legally possible, provided the requirement is genuine and procedures are strictly followed. The plan involving the granddaughter's friends introduces a significant risk factor concerning the bona fides of the termination, potentially exposing the landlords to a claim under Section 56 if challenged. Ground 5 is an alternative if refurbishment requirements are met, but also carries risks if used pretextually.

astrofool

Getting the bills sorted seems ancillary to getting the property to a vacant state.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123303925#Comment_123303925

That is just going to lead to a nightmare. The landlord is well aware that the tenants have changed and, based on the post, accept rent from them individually. Those are the persons on which they need to serve a termination notice.

burtner

@1

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123305139#Comment_123305139

you need to learn how to use AI to refine results.

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123305342#Comment_123305342

I'm curious, do you think anything is incorrect?

Or just too detailed?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123305378#Comment_123305378

to long, it’d be easier to just read the website

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123304342#Comment_123304342

It appears there is a very low chance of those tenants complying. A bit of pressure and they will fall apart.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123305385#Comment_123305385

I think it's quite good, maybe some of the grounds didn't need to be mentioned in this context, but it did touch on commentary such as "must be a requirement for the accommodation to be used for a family member" - so if the family member has alternate accommodation available, there is a perceived risk if the notice is challenged, that the level of requirement will be tested by the RTB (assuming they bother to consider the law at all that day)...

ballyharpat

Issue the notice to quit for rent arrears, you do not have to give full notice then. Also, I would move my daughter in as soon as possible, even if she is not staying there full time. She has as much a right to be there as anyone else, she can then be put on the lease and can tell people they need to go. I wouldn't bother changing the electric right now, .

Appletreeblossom

Thank you all - will read all replies tomorrow .

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123306930#Comment_123306930

This is where I get confused with rules about house-shares and multiple tenants. First, I don’t understand how the owners could just move their granddaughter into a property if there is an existing lease, wouldn’t the tenants be entitled to refuse that?

Then, in post #17 (Existence of Tenancy)it says the current occupants are tenants with part4 rights. But are they tenants or licensees? If the four original tenants left over time, and assigned their tenancy to replacements, but no new or updated lease was signed with the owners, can a tenancy continue just based on a verbal agreement and transfer between occupants?

In S50.8(a) it says the landlord has to acknowledge acceptance of a new tenant in writing. So if the current occupants were not accepted in writing as assignees of the original tenants, does that mean they are still licensees? Just because the rent was paid doesn’t mean the occupants were not licensees. Also, if they were still licensees and all original tenants gone, would a tenancy finish when the last tenant vacated?

Claw Hammer

The RTB deems a situation where the landlord accepts rent from someone as creating a tenancy by implication. A lease does not have to be in writing. If a landlord knows someone is in a dwelling and takes rent from them the issue of assignment is side-stepped. The situation outlined her is a mess. The granddaughter can't be inserted without agreement as it would be a breach of the right to peaceful enjoyment.
In the case under appeal against the RTB the situation is bizarre. No individual has a lease of a dwelling but collectively they are held to have a lease of a dwelling notwithstanding there is no joint and several liability.
It would seem there would be nothing to stop the landlord moving in to the next room which becomes vacant. At that point the dwelling would cease to be under the remit of the RTB and all rights would be gone.

MojoMaker

At least your ChatGPT answer is shorter.