Do I need planning and what will it cost

Olivia Pope

Hi there,

Looking for advice on two points.

We converted our attic a few years ago. We now want to extend out the back. Am I right that the attic conversion sq footage will come off the 430 sq feet allowable extension (without planning) even though the attic conversion didn't increase the footprint of the house.

If the attic conversion is to be included in the 430 sq feet. What do I measure? The attic room and the stairwell or just the attic room?

Should I get the measurement of the attic and extension signed off by someone like an engineer etc.

Second question is re price, so our kitchen diner is an L shape and we want to do an L shape extension to make a square shape, if that makes sense. The extension will be 170-180 sq feet. I would like a sloping roof with a big velux and I would like a big picture window and a regular door out to the garden.

We are mid terrace so no side windows etc, what could u expect to pay for this extension?

We are in a suburb in Cork city.

Thanks

Gumbo

You should work off Square Meters as this is what the exemption is based on.

My opinion is that a converted attic within the roof space does not come out of the 40 Sq. M allowance for rear extensions.

But you need to make sure you’ve no other previous extensions or conversions.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058399156/do-i-need-planning-and-what-will-it-cost

You measure the total area of extended internal floor area.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123231166#Comment_123231166

Agree with this interpretation.

Class 1 exempt extensions do not include attic conversions.

muffler

Id be of the same opinion that the attic conversion of up to 40m2 is separate from the 40m2 exemption for an extension.

However just like other parts of the regs it isnt black and white and thats why we are giving "opinions" as there is nothing in legislation to confirm or deny the opinions expressed above. Its only a few short years ago that we all thought attic conversions of any size were exempt thus leaving the available exemption of 40m2 free for extensions. Then out of the blue either ABP or the RIAI (and someone can remind me who) announced that the max exempted area for attic conversions was 40m2. But it was never clarified if this 40m2 was a stand alone exemption or part of class 1 of the exemptions.

2 points I would make. First of all converting an attic space to habitable accommodation is increasing the floor area of the house so it could possibly be deemed as being Class 1. Secondly lets say you get PP for a 50m2 attic conversion and later you wish to extend to the rear of the house (exempt development). Can you then avail of the full 40m2 exemption or is the additional 10m2 in the attic deducted?

Let the debate begin!

Olivia Pope

Thanks everyone. I rang the planning office yesterday for my County and the person advised me to send in an email with my query. I'd prefer everything to be watertight regards planning. I measured the attic including the room and the new stair well and it's 22.3 sq metres. Leaving me 17.7 for my extension which is just enough but the margins are very tight.

I don't want hassle down the road, the attic conversion does not qualify as habitable space and it's not used as a bedroom. So I'll see how I go. We would prefer to avoid having to go for planning for the extension, so if they say the attic is part of the 40sqm we will ensure that the small extension doesn't bring the attic and small extension over the 40 sqm. Nothing is straightforward!!

I will keep the thread updated, it might help someone else. Thanks for the comments.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123234509#Comment_123234509

I don't think there is anything in law that suggests a separate 40sqm limit in relation to attic conversions. If an LA's are apply that they are making up their own laws.
I don't think there is any substance to the idea that an attic conversion could be class 1. Class one specifically refers to extension to the rear and side only.

Posters should check their own local authority, but as an example DCC stat is exempt (alomg with rear Velux) and separate the 40sqm for class 1.

If I build an attic conversion do I need permission?

Normally no. However, if the work involves dormer windows, permission is needed. If Velux windows are proposed to the rear, it is exempt. If Velux windows are proposed to the side/front elevation it is not exempt.

Is the area of an attic conversion reckonable in assessing the 40sqm exemption limit for domestic extensions?

No

And a relevant ABP case, often referenced in other cases;

Ref. PL28.RF.0794, with respect to the installation of “velux” rooflights and whether the conversion of attic space into a bedroom at 6 Glencairn Park, Rossa Avenue, Bishopstown, Cork is or is not development or exempted development. The Board decision considers that the conversion of attic space into a bedroom is not a material change in the use of the dwelling house and is not development, and accordingly the question of whether it is exempt development does not arise.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123237160#Comment_123237160

Im open to correction here but I believe the RIAI circulated its members several years ago advising that the max permitted exemption for attic conversions was 40m2. I don't know if that was their interpretation or a determination by ABP.

On the issue of Velux windows i have seen a determination by the board that 3 Velux to the front of a roof was exempt.

I suppose the general point I'm making is that there are grey areas in the regs which are down to interpretation by different planning authorities and those planners who make the decisions aren't all singing from the same hymn sheet.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123237250#Comment_123237250

I haven't seen the RIAI statement so can't comment. But the above is from ABP, it was from ~1996, but I have since ABP reconfirm it as recently as 2017.

Some is open to interpretation, such as Velux to the front. But it's one thing to add addition exemptions not specifically in SI600/2001. It's another to try to change the wording of the regs to included extra requirements.

But the cur above ABP case was Cork, which is where the OP is. Who knows what way they'll look at it. You have to check, and they may even be "wrong". Their game, their rules

Olivia Pope

Mellor, thank you for quoting that case, I'll refer to it in my correspondence.

Our attic conversion has no dormers and no velux at the front. It has 3 velux at the back, one over the new stairwell and 2 in the attic room.

DOCARCH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123237250#Comment_123237250

I posted about that 'elsewhere' a couple of years ago (2019) - copy and paste of that post:

An Bord Pleanála – Attic Conversions

A recent Direction/Order by An Board Pleanala regarding a declaration sought by an architect on behalf of a client in connection with a proposed refurbishment of an existing bungalow, the construction of a 40 sq.m. single-storey extension to the rear and conversion of the existing attic including the provision of rooflights to the rear pitch of the roof and first floor gable windows has provided an interesting conclusion.

The An Bord Pleanala Inspector, in his Report recommended that the Bord should decide that:

(a)The 40 sq.m. single storey extension to the rear of the house would be located within the curtilage of the dwelling and would comply with the conditions and limitations set down under Schedule 2, Part 1, Class 1 of the Planning and Development Regulations, 2001, as amended, and, (b) The attic conversion would comply with Section 4(1)(h) of the Planning and Development Act, 2000, as amended, is development and is exempted development.

However. An Bord Pleanala in its Direction/Order has decided the following:

NOW THEREFORE An Bord Pleanála, in exercise of the powers conferred on it by section 5 (4) of the 2000 Act, hereby decides that the refurbishment of an existing dwelling, the construction of a single storey extension and the conversion of existing attic to provide new accommodation incorporating Velux type rooflights at Tipperkevin, Naas, County Kildare is development and is not exempted development.

The Bord goes on to say, by way of explanation, that…

’In not accepting the recommendation of the Inspector that the development would be exempted development, the Board had regard to case law as to the correct meaning of Section 4 (1)(h) of the Planning and Development Act, 2000, as amended, and did not accept that the attic conversion came within the scope of the exemption afforded by this legislative provision. Furthermore, the Board had regard to previous referral decisions made by it, which determined that the limit of 40 square metres in Condition and Limitation 2 (a) of Class 1 applied to any floorspace that was not part of the original floor area of the house, including the floor area of an attic that had been converted after the construction of the original house (for example, referral register reference number 06D.RL.2477).’

The Inspectors Report, ABP Direction and ABP Order can all be viewed and downloaded:

http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/reports/303/R303783.pdf

http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/directions/303/S303783.pdf

http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/orders/303/D303783.pdf

Obviously, all decisions by An Bord Pleanala are made on a case-by-case basis but they are crossed referenced and linked to previous decisions and case law. It is recommended that all members satisfy themselves as to the possible implications of this Decision by An Bord Pleanala. It has always been RIAI’s understanding that the conversion of attic spaces in domestic situations to habitable use would be exempted development under the provisions of Section 4(1)(h) of the Planning and Development Act, 2000, as amended and from previous decisions by ABP. This view was obviously taken not only by An Bord Pleanala’s own Inspector in his Report on the referral but is also supported by Dublin City Council and Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co. Co. websites where they confirm, under FAQ’s, that permission to build an attic conversion is not normally required and that the area of an attic conversion reckonable in assessing the 40sqm exemption limit for domestic extensions is not included in the overall area calculation.

The DCC and DLRCoCo FAQ sections can be viewed here.

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/planning/planning-faqs

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/frequently-asked-questions-planning

DOCARCH

Just to say again, the above was from 2019, and was just highlighting the outcome of an isolated case.

sydthebeat

https://www.pleanala.ie/anbordpleanala/media/abp/cases/reports/300/r300176.pdf

And heres a case from 2018 where the Bord decided the complete opposite of the above case.

And clients wonder why we would be slow to offer an opinion on such cases :)

my own opinion, over the last few years, is that every attic conversion requires planning permission, regardless or not if it complies with the requirements of the building regulations ie less than 2.4 ceiling height etc

Olivia Pope

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Am I opening a can of worms going to the planning office?

Like could they tell me to remove my attic conversion?

Our understanding when we did it 2 years ago was that we didn't need planning

What professional should I go to here for advice before I write to the council.

Architect, solicitor?

monseiur

You are overthinking this, why bring the attic conversion into the equation ? Apply for extension, if it's under the max. sq. metres allowed and all other things being equal, no objections etc. etc. the planning office will more than likely give you the green light. If the extension is over the max. sq. metres allowed without planning an inspector will visit your site - that is the site of the proposed extension and hopefully grant you full planning. The fact that you have converted the attic internally has no bearing what so ever on what your are applying for, assuming of course the external roof hasn't been altered. There should be no issue with one or two Velux roof lights.

Lumen

I don't understand why the definition of "habitable space" in public discourse is limited to bedrooms, since "habitable room" is defined in legislation and referred to in planning decisions as "a room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area of less than 6.5 square metres".

Clearly since "living" and "sleeping" are referred to separately, and you don't generally sleep in a kitchen, a kitchen is an example of a space you live in, but if the intent of the legislation was to limit living space to kitchens it would be written that way, e.g. "a kitchen or room used for sleeping purposes".

Consequently, "living" excludes sleeping and is not limited to activities in a kitchen, so what is it?

It must be more than the biological definition of living, since you do not die every time you climb into an unconverted attic.

In absence of a clear definition I would revert to plain English terminology, where "living" includes at least things you might do in a kitchen or "living room", e.g. cooking, reading, watching TV, working, incidental napping or enjoying company, but excludes bathing and toilet activities (although those might be included, they are not directly implied).

This is entirely the purpose of every modified attic I've ever been in. They are, quite obviously, living rooms, and therefore habitable, whether or not designed or permitted as such.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123246616#Comment_123246616

Habitable rooms are rooms you spend and reasonable length of it. Bedrooms, living rooms, kitchen/dining, offices, etc. As the list of domestic rooms name/types is endless. It's easier to list the room that are not habitable: Bathrooms, WCs, Small galley type kitchens, storage area such attics purely for storage.

When people say an attic is not habitable, they typically mean it does not meet habitable requirements, therefore cannot be advertised as such - but the actual usage is as per habitable space.