Wolves in Ireland IT today 20/02/25

Grizzly 45

Once you see the sentence " The science is settled" on an issue in an article,you can guess how it will progress and its further contents.

https://www.irishtimes.com/science/2025/02/20/the-company-of-wolves-should-large-predators-be-reintroduced-to-ireland/?fbclid=IwY2xjawIkIptleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHbU3lTGnE_rtV_voZ6GSuBV4ZFo2eMFmphMfOSWz18VrLsMuTEjUbqduaQ_aem_koENml7A2zeBeElxM_zXgw

BSA International

Science, reality & common sense rarely exist in the same space.

otmmyboy2

Between this and the proposals to introduce wild boar here you'll have farmers looking for plenty of hardware to deal with them 😂

John_Rambo

Lynx will probably happen first.

JP22

Personal opinion, it would be great to see some of these species reintroduced back like the eagles.

Alas, it won’t happen for most of them, basically we don’t have enough parks/wild areas large enough to cater for them. Farming community wouldn’t be happy but, lots of countries have schemes in place to compensate farmers should damage be caused plus culls are also in place to keep numbers in check.

Wolves need lots of prey and extremely large areas to roam, once a pack splits you need even larger areas to accommodate them, Lynx on the other hand are mainly solitary in nature and would make an ideal candidate. Wild boar (plentiful in lots of EU countries and city parks) would be great but is there anywhere suitable for them?, as they cause lots of damage.

Plenty of countries have reintroduced species or have put measures in place for current species to expand over larger areas, overall it’s a good thing but then they are properly managed, alas the term “properly managed” seems to be severely lacking in Ireland across all aspects of life.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123199460#Comment_123199460

I think it's marketed as "Axe" now.

But the wolves were hunted out for a reason. Do those reasons still hold?

tonysopprano

Here is a park of 220,000acres and even that cannot contain the wolves,

All forests in Ireland make up less than 2,000,000 acres and are spread around the country

JJayoo

If wolves were reintroduced back to Ireland not a single deer would be hunted, why try and find/chase a deer when there is a field full of slow moving animals that are confined and can't escape, anyone wanting to bring back wolves should Google the following words 'dog' 'attack' 'sheep'.

But I would support a 5 year trial in the Phoenix Park 😀 see how ye get on

tom1ie

Why would we re introduce an apex predator?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123199769#Comment_123199769

I didn't mention wolves, however you welcome the discussion about them… the Brits hunted out the wolves in Ireland eventually. Previous to this they were an integral part of the Irish countryside and culture, appearing in literature and the arts throughout the ages. My own families coat of arms features two wolves as do many other Irish families. Now… we just don't have enough natural cover for them, but that could and probably will change. Most European countries have them, I've seen them in Italy close to where we were camping. Amazing animal.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123199751#Comment_123199751

You hit it in the last paragraph, we cannot even manage a few species of deer here responsibly, let alone predatory animals.

Wolves have been introduced in other places, but even in vast open spaces they still cause immense trouble for farmers, ranchers, etc.

And inevitably you have to contend with badly written laws to protect the animals which make management extremely difficult.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123199769#Comment_123199769

It was Cromwell and English settlers who wanted to wipe out the wolves(along with our woods and native tribes) - the native Irish had a live and let live attitude to them ie. problem animals were removed but there was no organised attempt to wipe out the species till then

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123199808#Comment_123199808

Over population of deer(damage to woodlands, crops, TB spread), foxes(100k, should be 10k) and excessive Badger numbers with the TB issue there too. These are the arguments make in the OP piece. Thats not an argument to bring them back anytime soon(wouldn't work with current sheep husbandry here compared to the likes of Romania), just mentioning the consequences when you remove key species from an ecosystem

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123200015#Comment_123200015

These are all things we, as the apex predator, should be managing.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123200018#Comment_123200018

Maybe, but doesn't appear to be working too well on that front with even our so-called National Parks in rag order due to these issues and others. Similar issues in Scotland, hence the debate there too. The other issue with hunter culling is that its the finer, healthier animals that tend to get targeted, whereas with wolves and other top predators its the sicker/weaker animals that are culled. Its one of the reasons why Red Deer Stags in Eastern Europe are a far more impressive animal than what you get on these islands

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123200018#Comment_123200018

At which we are stymied at every turn by extremely strict laws regarding hunting, firearms, trapping etc, not to mention the extremely disjointed enforcement of both those laws and enforcing personal beliefs from the Guards regarding ammunition amounts, suppressors(which do not make most guns hearing safe let alone quiet), what firearms are deemed to be acceptable to be used for hunting and pest control, etc.

The forums are full of lads who are treated like criminals by AGS for wanting to go out and responsibly manage wildlife, and I'd wager a lot of potential entrants are put off by all of the above.

And I wouldn't blame them one bit.

alex90

There appears to be limited evidence that lynx were ever present here. Certainly it's far from conclusive, much as i think they'd do well and cause much fewer issues than wolves.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123200114#Comment_123200114

Hey, the greens can prove anything they say is true without proof, and they don't need evidence, just a fat-arsed -kardashian-like influencer to get onboard or maybe another teen greta

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123200114#Comment_123200114

They 100% existed in Ireland.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123200114#Comment_123200114

Well,they would certainly sort out the feral domestic cat pouplation as that's one of their prey specis,along with small yappy toy breed dogs.But deer,unless we have a secret roe deer pouplation or the prolific breeding muntjac ,that no one has seen or shot in a long while here.But our main breed of deer would have nothing to fear from them.

J.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123200114#Comment_123200114

The original Celtic Tiger, the Eurasian lynx is a large cat that once roamed Ireland. The European lynx was long thought to have never reached our shores as it was mainly absent from our fossil records. In 1934 a mandible of a young lynx turned up amongst the animal remains excavated from a cave in County Waterford. It was then confirmed that the lynx was in fact a native Irish big cat.

https://wildireland.org/our-journal/naoise-the-lynx/#:~:text=The%20European%20lynx%20was%20long,a%20native%20Irish%20big%20cat.

magicbastarder

i assume caves are really the only place (outside sites of human habitation) where ancient animal bones are found. partly because we generally don't tend to pay as much heed archaeologically to non-human sites? as well as the chances of them being preserved.

alex90

Thsts exactly my point, there is only that one site where theres any evidence of lynx

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123223450#Comment_123223450

Which proves they 100% existed in Ireland.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123223450#Comment_123223450

i'm not sure it is. it won't have been a prey animal for humans, so bones won't be found in sites of human habitation. which is generally where archaeological digs happen. and say someone came across the bones of a lynx in a bog - they're not going to ring the NMI in the way they would if they found human remains; it's just animal bones.

the point i was making, obviously not clear enough, is that lynx would generally be rare in the archaeological record anyway. but not necessarily because they themselves were rare.

or to look at it another way - presuming lynx were present, where would you expect to find their bones? caves. you can see that from the british archaeological record:

https://www.derbyshiremammalgroup.org.uk/lynx.html

i know there was work being done in ireland going through bones pulled from caves over the last century or more, but never properly examined, by ruth carden and others. i'm not sure if that work has finished or not, but it could still be very possible that there are lynx bones in a dusty box somewhere still, waiting to be looked at.

alex90

I hear ya, well explained reasoning there.

Grizzly 45

or to look at it another way - presuming lynx were present, where would you expect to find their bones? caves. you can see that from the British archaeological record:

Except Lynx don't live in dens or caves.They are boreal forest cats[IE native old timber type growth],and leave their kittens under some safe feature like a hollow log or rock crevice ,etc while they hunt.They either ambush hunt or stalk a short distance.So it would be a freak accident possibly if one was found in a cave here.But that doesnt then also say that they were a common sight either to our ancestors.Is there any mention of them in ancient Irish texts,like the wolf for example?

Also,their main diet apart from domestic cats and small dogs are rabbits and hares,and various rodents and not deer which would kind of negate the main reason for introducing them in the first place as a natural deer predator.Also,as we have less than 10% natural woodland,and what we call "forests" here are man planted timber crops and supposedly warmer Winters with "Climate change",Ireland is hardly going to be a suitable enviroment for the Lynx to flourish.

John_Rambo

I think it's a fear spreading myth that European lynx would hunt domestic cats and dogs. Engaging in reckless confrontations with noisy, unpredictable prey is far too risky for them, especially when there are high nutritional prey options like rats, birds, hares, fawns and rabbits, available with minimal risk of permanent injury. We see this in European countries that host them.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123225792#Comment_123225792

yes, i know lynx don't live in caves. my point was not where they live, but where their remains might still be found thousands of years later.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123226124#Comment_123226124

Ok so lets just ignore unpleasent facts and possibilities,as usual and introduce a species that isnt going to do a bit of difference to the deer pouplation because it doesn't predate on our three main species,simply because its size is not big enough to tackle,red,fallow or sika,but predates on domestic pets,feral cats,hares,and sheep and rodents,and dont have a proper natural habitat for it to survive in let alone thrive.Because…REwilding!!! It behoves everyone involved in this idea to consider all and any information and studies before considering or letting any type of creature out in our eco system.

Just because "They are doing it in Europe/UK/US/wherever" doesn't mean its safe,sane or possible to do in Ireland.Otherwise,we'll be just back in the usual. Massive washing of hands in public from those concerned,waste of taxpayers money with a hames made of the project, because dissenting voices nd counter arguements were drowned out no accountability for damage to someones property in the short or long term,and the usual platitudes of "lessons learned,no one to blame,lets move on! mantra.For Once in Ireland,can we look at the overall picture and realism of doing a project and actually getting a benefit and be adult enough to say,Nope,this wont work!

John_Rambo

I don't think it's time to panic. I can't see them being re-introduced to Ireland soon!

But to say domestic dogs and cats are part of their main diet is scare mongering.