Not Clearing Probation in Civil Service – What Are My Options?

Ray666

Hi everyone,

I need some clarity about probation in the civil service. I’m at the 9-month mark. My 3- and 6-month reviews were marked satisfactory, but now I’m unsure if I’ll clear the probation. If my manager places me on a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan), will that extend my probation to 12 months? Or will I know by the end of 9 months whether I’m staying or leaving?

Also, I’m in the union—can they assist me in any way? Are there chances they could move me to another division or department instead of letting me go? If I don’t clear probation now, does that mean I’ll never be eligible to work in the civil service again?

Can I still apply to other public sector or civil service roles in the future? Lastly, if I’m made redundant for not clearing probation, will I receive any pay?

FunkyChicken24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058387682/not-clearing-probation-in-civil-service-what-are-my-options

Do you have any reason to believe they are not happy with you, or are you just feeling worried because of the uncertainty? If you have no concrete reason to worry then I wouldn't worry, it is really unlikely that they will fail your probation, if the two previous reviews were satisfactory. I empathise with you though as probation can be really stressful.

I presume the 9 month review hasn't happened yet so I would wait to see what happens there but in my understanding, if something has happened that they aren't happy with, then you would usually be given the opportunity to adjust your performance. I don't believe they are allowed to give you an unsatisfactory reuslt at 9 months without having discussed it with you in advance and given you a chance to turn things around perhaps with a PIP.

Your probation is always 12 months, and in my understanding there are only very limited reasons they are allowed to extend your probation past 12 months, although the 9 months review is the last actual review, you don't get your official result until around the 11 month mark as HR still have the final say.

You are given the result at around the 11 month mark as they need to allow enough time for you to appeal the result if you are failed probation and they cannot let the probation go longer than 12 months. You should look into the appeal process and prepare yourself if you have any reason to believe they might be going to fail you.

If you feel there is a personality clash with your manager or some particular issue that leads you to think you are about to be given an unsatisfactory 9 month review unfairly from your POV, then you need to make sure you have documented every incident, preferably as they happen, so that you can argue your case with HR and for any appeal.

I would definitely suggest talking to the union if you are already a member, and do become a member asap if you aren't yet, as they will not intervene if an issue has risen before you joined; however, they are not always able to help much and you will really need to advocate for yourself and explain why you think you are being treated unfairly.

I would also read up on the Dignity at Work policy and talk to the CSEAS about mediation if you feel like this is being breached in your case.

I'm not sure what the situation is regarding whether you will be able to work elsewhere in the Civil Service if you have failed probation but I would imagine it would have a lot to do with why you were failed.

It is also, in my understanding, unlikely that they will fail you unless you have done something really serious, especially at a time when we have nearly full employment in Ireland so basically less people applying to work in the CS.

Try not to worry too much and good luck 😊

Ted222

Unless you have a reason to believe you will fail the 9 month assessment, I wouldn’t worry about it.

It is however the effective point at which a decision on your longer-term suitability will be made. There will be no PIP. It will be a binary choice between you staying or going.

If you are adjudged to be unsuitable at the 9 month mark (after which you would have no opportunity to address any shortcomings), I would strongly question why any shortcomings weren’t highlighted at the 3 and 6 month reviews (which would have offered an opportunity to subsequently improve).

crelando

I have some experience of dismissing somebody who was on probation in the civil service. Without going into specifics, this person was given plenty of warning that things were going badly for them. This was noted in PMDS/quarterly reviews and through meetings with their manager. It can't have come as a complete shock to them when they were told they were being dismissed. I am aware that this person made contact with the union after being let go but nothing came of it. We had done the groundwork properly and they didn't have a leg to stand on. They were gone long before their 9 month review.

If a manager is doing his or her job properly, they should be flagging any shortcomings as they happen. Unless somebody's work and attitude take a nosedive after the 6 month review, nobody should be hearing substantial criticisms for the first time at the 9 month mark. You've been deemed to be Satisfactory all the way along which is normal. Managers only have Satisfactory or Unsatisfactory ratings at their disposal. I don't agree with this binary rating myself but this is what our overlords have settled upon. Has something happened since your last review which makes you believe you won't make it the rest of the way? Has your manager indicated that something is wrong?

In my experience, once somebody makes it through the 9 month review and is still considered to be suitable, signing them off at 12 months is a mere formality. I've never heard of a civil service probation period lasting just 9 months. Is there something different in your contract? In answer to your other question, I don't believe it's possible to move to another department while you're on probation. Somebody else might be able to give you a definitive answer on this.

_Quilombero_

Are there certain departments where not passing probation is more common?

MrMusician18

You have to be grossly incompetent to the point of being dangerous or attending work high or drunk to fail CS probation.

watchclocker

DId they not change some rules around probation, that it can't be longer than 6 months?

Edit

Sorry just read it doesn't apply to public sector

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123049531#Comment_123049531

DSP maybe?

_Quilombero_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123049596#Comment_123049596

Friend of mine is in Justice and seems to be regular enough that people don't pass, Im told due to certain line managers on power trips.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058387682/not-clearing-probation-in-civil-service-what-are-my-options

If your 3 and 6 month reviews were good you will be fine.

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123049545#Comment_123049545

That’s the way it was years ago. Now the probationary period is managed very carefully.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123049737#Comment_123049737

I've never heard of someone not passing even if they were a poor performer. Only ones I've known to fail were dangerous, disgraceful or dishonest.

It's why some banks treat CS probation differently when applying for a mortgage.

Gusser09

If the 3 month and 6 month reviews were good without any issues raised it's very hard for a manager to justify raising issues in the 9 month review. They may extend probation but i can guarantee you it's impossible to get rid.

Just do whatever you are being asked to do and you will be fine.

Your manager if they have any sense will want to avoid a PIP at all costs.

crelando

The person I mentioned in my earlier post was dismissed because of their poor performance. Their attitude also worked against them but the two often go hand in hand anyway. They were not dangerous, disgraceful or dishonest. They were not up to the job and never would be.

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123050981#Comment_123050981

It’s not uncommon for people to be let go during probation. I was involved myself in a process that led to one such person being let go. It was purely for performance related reasons.

griffin100

I work in the public sector (not the civil service) and I've let people go on a couple of occasions during their probationary period, both at 9 months. In my experience poor performance is picked up quickly enough and between the 3 and 6 month reviews plans to address this are put in place. If you get to 9 months with no issues nothing should be raised at the 9 month review. HR tell us that starting to manage poor performance post 9 months is too late. Either the staff member is working out, at which case the 9 month review is a formality, or they aren't and the 9 month review is when you let them go.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123052006#Comment_123052006

Maybe not completely unheard of but it very much is the exception.

Goldengirl

Unless gross misconduct eg .stealing , under influence at work , very unlikely that something would not have been flagged already .

Nevertheless join the union who can advise on specifics .

DayInTheBog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123049737#Comment_123049737

I've seen timekeeping being given as a reason for failing probation. People not managing their clock, not doing the required hours and given even opportunity to fix it but didn't

DayInTheBog

Happens more often that you'd think. From my last department i got to talk to a lot of people who were being terminated. It had been flagged long in advance and they had opportunities to fix the problem.

Goldengirl

"Flagged well in advance" is key here .

Also statement previously about union not representing if you have had a difficulty prior to joining …not in my experience.

All unions will try to represent and help from the time the member joins, yes , but many people join when they already have experienced a difficulty so it doesn't make sense to say that the union won't represent for what is an ongoing situation .

Obviously there is no magic wand to make past mistakes disappear but many people won't be aware of organisational guidelines and practices except a brief read of a contract salary holidays etc unless pointed out by either a good line manager or a trade union rep .

crelando

He's already in the union. It's in the 2nd paragraph of his post.

This person asked the same question back in December, so I don't know why they're asking it again.

Advice on 9-Month Probation Period — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123050981#Comment_123050981

That isn't the case at least anymore in PS/CS in my experience. I have personally failed two people on probation with both we did our best with PIPs etc. Both were thrusted on me from a panel. As others have said if a person has passed 3 and 6 months milestone I doubt there is a serious issue.

csirl

CS is rapidly moving towards making the decision at 6 months. With most employees you should know after 6 months and issues would be flagged in 3 and 6 month reviews. Borderline employees will be given to the 9 month review to address any issues.

Unfair dismissals and a myriad of other rules apply once someone is permanent, so you make the decision in probation to avoid years of issues and hoops to jump through.

A lot of staff fail probation nowdays - sometimes as high as 20% for COs due to PAS not being as rigorous as in the past - seem to take an "any warm body" approach and leave it to the organisation to manage via probation.

As many posters have said, good 3 and 6 month reviews are a good sign things are going well. Have any recent issues arisen to make you concerned?

Employees usually cant be moved during probation to a "more suitable role". You cant be moved if on a PIP. Its normally a binary decision in the current role.

Ted222

It’s the exception everywhere - not just the civil service.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123052433#Comment_123052433

20%!?!

pauliebdub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123052727#Comment_123052727

It seems to be quite common. I'm in a similar situation myself but working through it. Part of the problem is putting people into roles they are not experienced in and then they struggle.

Hotblack Desiato

CO is an entry level role, nobody is expected to be experienced in anything. So either PAS have lowered the bar too much or the training is lacking.

vatsie76

I am an AO on probation. Failed my 3 and 6 months review. 3 months review happened in 6th month and was failed based on my manager being unhappy from just one document which he looked at on the share drive( it was work in progress) he did not ask for it and neither was there any timelines set. I was on AL. When I came back the damage was already done. There was no prior discussion on my performance. Then my 6th month review happened just in a gap of 1 month. He gave me unsatisfactory on the grounds that it is too close to the last review to change the direction of his judgement. He is otherwise satisfied with my work and if I continue to work the way I am, I will get satisfactory in 9 months review and it is all that matters. He has confirmed with Hr before giving me unsatisfactory in 6 months. I have emailed my concern with HR.

I really don't know what else can I do but stay strong and focus on my work and keep looking forward. I know I am capable. It's just a niche skill ( gone to Audit) and it will take time to develop. I have trainings lined up but all after my probation period. It worries me and I am getting sleepless nights as I feel my probation is not handled well. But no choice and only pray he gives me satisfactory in 9 months review

apkmbarry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123090900#Comment_123090900

Hopefully you're in the union, you should 100% bring it up with your union representative regarding your situation. Your two reviews being done in such a short time of each other, with no time to improve is REALLY risky on their part.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123090900#Comment_123090900

Extraordinary - you’ve been hard done by given the little time for improvement - problem is HR might only see “3 month review” “6 month review”- they may not clock that one review happened a month, not 3 months, after the other. Did your manager even indicate in what they wrote, that this was the case? Very bad form - your manager sounds like a right clown

Best of luck with the 9 month review

vatsie76

Hi thanks for your response. Hr has acknowledged that my reviews happened back to back. Problem is I am asking my manager for feedback in writing but he just does not respond. He says you are doing fine . I hope he uses his brain for my 9 month review. It is all that matters ( that's what I was told) . Don't know the ground reality. God forbid if he screws it for no apparent reason, I am going to appeal it. I read in the probation guide that they demote the person to previous role. Iknow I don't deserve this. Any idea on the what actually happens ?

Hotblack Desiato

What a clown. Says you're doing fine but gives you a bad review in writing. Shouldn't be managing anyone. Put yourself down for mobility immediately and hopefully you can get out in a couple of years. Or once your probation is over, ask HR for an internal transfer.