WFH is dead and buried. Right to WFH bill is pointless

riddles

if you argue strongly you can do your job fully remotely - it’s then circled as a job that can be done in a low cost country if you work in a multinational. Also, for the civil service here if it can function on one day a week in the office why not drop it to four days a week work week fire them all and hire people in low cost countries and free up the buildings for the free housing for all comers the governments currently working on.

It was generally accepted that you can’t work and care for children working remotely - unless you are just looking after children.

eastie17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173032#Comment_123173032

wouldn’t it be fairer if you stopped continually dragging this off topic with your completely irrelevant references to the US government

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173032#Comment_123173032

What **** Federal employees?! This is Ireland. Not the 51st state. Do you just not understand this?! We don't have Federal employees (except for the few dozen working in US Immigration at Dublin Airport, and the American Embassy, both of which are technically US soil).

itsacoolday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173306#Comment_123173306

"Ah we are different " sez you. Productivity of Irish civil servants is not like productivity of USA federal employees.

I remember one other time people said "ah we are different" was during the celtic tiger. We partied, and told ourselves we would have a soft landing. We were different. How did that work out?

Covid is over. The party is over. Get back to work.

Gary_dunne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173335#Comment_123173335

We’re all still waiting for your sources or evidence for these claims.

If you don’t have any that aren’t “Trump said” that’s fine just admit to it.

This thread is purely about the “Right to WFH Bill in Ireland”, time to leave the US out of it, other threads available to you to spout your pro-Trump rhetoric.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173335#Comment_123173335

I shouldn’t be engaging but keeping your “opinion” in mind how do you square the circle with companies who have decided it’s not worth keeping the office as wfh is working just fine? The company my wife works for closed a significant number of their offices world wide including in Ireland and moved everyone in those offices to fully remote. They saw no need for the office as business is flying and spending money on empty offices was a total waste. Aside from the vast majoring staff being very happy with this my wife as said it’s made hiring for her team much simpler as they can hire people anywhere in Ireland and there is no getting approval for remote anymore as everyone is.

Haven’t read the whole thread so apologies if it’s already been covered but a Q for people who don’t have children who work with lots of people who work from home.

Do you end up having to pick up slack for people with children who are working from home and have kids in the house with them?

And secondly, many times I’ve been for lunch with friends where we are in a restaurant and they are ‘working from home’ ie. checking their phone every 30 mins. Is there a junior member staff in an office somewhere picking up slack for them?

I know these things vary but are these common scenarios?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173643#Comment_123173643

Do you end up having to pick up slack for people with children who are working from home and have kids in the house with them?

No.

In fact, we have less people calling in at the last minute to take the day off or having to leave work because they get a call from the creche - because they have better options that allow them to manage their work / life balance.

Despite what those who like to dwell under bridges think, it is possible to have children in the house, and still work.

Gary_dunne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173643#Comment_123173643

No, not at all, very simple answer.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173335#Comment_123173335

This thread has nothing to do with the Celtic tiger, or US federal employees. Stay on topic, or feck off back under your bridge.

I worked all through Covid, you muppet. I'm still working. At the start of Covid, it was 100% in the office, because it was necessary, despite me being immuno-compromised. I've being WFH and WFO from mid-Covid, to date, and my productivity is greater than when I was in the office full-time. Including continuing to work when I did get Covid, because y'know what - you can do that when there's blended working. You can't if you can only work in the office. Same goes if you have any infectious disease.

GHendrix

Remote working and AI are both here to stay. Lots of people are afraid of change and will fight against it but these things happen.

These days most people have a desk, chair and super fast internet. It just makes sense.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123173643#Comment_123173643

Do you end up having to pick up slack for people with children who are working from home and have kids in the house with them?

No.

First off, it's only between 5 and 15% of the workforce who have kids of an age who need "looking after". So they use these things called "creches", entering a commercial arrangement whereby they pay a creche to mind their children during working hours.

Occasionally a child is sick and needs to be cared for from home. Most families are two-parent, so it's a 50/50 chance it'll be the parent who is my colleague who will have to drop something to look after the child. Often, it'd just mean collecting the kid, who more than likely, if sick, will be tired and listless and will just be happy sat in front of the TV. Actually, it's a less than 50/50 chance, because of course there are often grandparents available, too.

Failing that, of course, we can always dump our kids with "itsacoolday"'s mate, who is already looking after her kids and her neighbours kids while also doing a fulltime job and sunbathing (but her employers completely fail to notice this!) - sure what's another sick kid or two! /s

Larbre34

Right, lets talk about what we're talking about.

All civil service, public sector and semi-State jobs that can do so, have migrated to a permanent hybrid 60/40 home/office pattern.

The reason for that is not only family friendly policies, or union campaigning, it because the government has enshrined in law its climate targets, including a big reduction in road transport emissions. Reducing the commuting days of a couple of hundred thousand people that they have direct control over, is an easy win for them, and they are never going to roll it back.

And so, they will continue to encourage this message to the private sector too, without which they cannot achieve the goal.

Don't worry about America. Its clear that as a society they have lost their reason. They never had good statutory employment protections or work/life balance mandates anyway, so rolling back WFH is just a control flex from older white men. You need to look at the numbers who would sooner quit even a good job in America than return to 5 day commuting.

I've spoken to senior executives and country managers in US firms' Irish operations and they thank the Lord almighty (literally) for being based here and for the protections and better life balance here. In fact the staff demand to move to Irish based operations among those American businesses is colossal!

As for the JP Morgan lad ranting about WFH, its hardly surprising, as that narcissist just spent 3.5 Billion dollars on this monstrosity at 270 Park Avenue, Manhattan, as a monument to himself🙄

Nody

Mod:

@itsacoolday thread banned for constant derailing of thread and if it comes up in a third thread in the forum that will be upgraded to forum ban instead.

riddles

I recall I asked Minister Michael McGrath in October 2023 why Finance Department staff were operating 4 days from home still and also accruing flexi time. As verified by friends working here. Response “In your opening paragraph, you mention that the Department is 4 days remote working, this is not the case. The Department's Blending Working Policy has an expectation of 2 or 3 days in the office per week, with additional attendance as business needs require.”

Feb 25 same friends still four days a week at home.

Flinty997

You didn't ask him about your friends. You asked him about staff, a sweeping statement. So you got a generic sweeping generalisation about the policy in reply, which was probably correct. You'd need to name your "friends" in the political query you make. Try again. I'd be curious how what happens.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176124#Comment_123176124

is it not the case civil servants are doing 1 day a week in the office still or is it just the department of Finance? The sweeping statement is coming from the minister himself regarding a department recommendation of 2/3 days a week in the office.

I believe Pobal is also on one day per week in the office.

Flinty997

There is policy, there is recommendation, and there is local arrangements, and theres what people do either with approval or without. There's also "beliefs".

These are not one and same. Which if anyone has been discussing it with "friends" should be obvious.

Dunno how anyone can read this thread and suggesting regarding sweeping generalisations and immediately come out with "civil servants".

The answer to which is .. it depends.

Ezeoul

There is also an "expectation" that all civil servants should remote work a minimum of one day a week / 20%. That's an official government policy. Yet no one is bothered about the staff who don't meet that expectation.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176056#Comment_123176056

Good to hear common sense being applied and not needlessly dragging people into the office any more than 1 days per week - you would wonder is even the 1 day needed most weeks since the jobs can all clearly be done remotely.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176555#Comment_123176555

why not staff the jobs with resources based in low cost locations then?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176731#Comment_123176731

(a) Irish civil servants are not allowed to live permanently outside the island of Ireland.

(b) There is also a matter of them being required to be familiar with national / local / constituency matters / Irish legislation.

Plus, commuting from "low cost" locations to work from office even one day a month would be costly. (/s)

As an aside, could you please provide a link to your previous PQ to Michael McGrath? I've tried to find it, on both PQs and Dail Debates databases, but had no success. Thanks.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176761#Comment_123176761

submit a freedom of information request to minister McGrath to release his offices email response if you are that motivated.
Our Ref: FIN-MO-03385-2023

Referred to
The Civil Service Blended Working Policy Framework published on 31 March 2022

if there are no measurable objectives - how can WFH be measured.

The majority of tasks could be packaged up into reference documents and outsourced quite easily. As we have seen with the levels incompetence through each department with zero accountability and zero respect for tax payers money outsourcing may be a route to value not currently achievable is existing departments. Specially as the stated the jobs can be done remotely.

This is exactly the conversation happening in every company around the world where jobs have been designated as fully remote or almost fully remote possible.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176841#Comment_123176841

So you don't have a link, thanks.

You don't need to quote the Framework to me, I am very familiar with it.

As an aside, the civil service is not a company.

MojoMaker

Of course riddles doesn't have a link, it's fantasy stuff.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176853#Comment_123176853

a link to an email to the minister mmm yes okay.
“The civil service is not a company!” Yes we are well it operates with pour governance, lack of oversight and accountability, zero budget adherence and no performance management. Yes most definitely not a company.

Flinty997

You can't outsource it outside the country for data protection reasons anyway. Most work is geolocked.

Tbh trying to equate public sector with private sector is clueless. One is driven by profit the other is not. It's like alternate universes.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176890#Comment_123176890

Easy know we are dealing with scone munchers can’t absorb basic instruction.
Our Ref: FIN-MO-03385-2023

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176925#Comment_123176925

as clueless as suggesting it can be done almost fully remote which is the core of the issue. Outsourced to companies based here tasks completed at a fraction of the cost together with transparency and performance management.

Reduce the cost of doing business here in the real world economy win win.

The only tenuous link to real world accountability was adherence to office attendance. But yes dispense with that too.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176890#Comment_123176890

Indeed. I wonder did they also mention this email to their friends who work in the Dept of Finance.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176915#Comment_123176915

Not a multinational either. :)

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176731#Comment_123176731

You really want to outsource Irish civil and public service jobs to India? The Philippines? Russia? North Korea? Apart from the immediate huge drop in quality of service… ah, feck it, nah. Can't even be arsed pointing out the problems with this.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123177185#Comment_123177185

it was an illogical suggestion the same as suggesting the said same group whose only tenuous link to the concept of productivity was measured by office attendance. That now suddenly they can be almost fully remote is illogical. Even when in the office 30% do literally nothing 30% do something under supervision 25% carry the others and correct errors and 15% are promoted way beyond their competency and exercise no leadership responsibility.

But yes if the entire lot want a farcical free for all 80% remote setup then carve it up and go private with the tasks possible. Most functions are money down the toilet as it is.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123177276#Comment_123177276

Ah, facetious posts and made up stats. Gotcha.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123177522#Comment_123177522

I guess it's pointless asking for any links to the sources of any of these stats, as well.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176947#Comment_123176947

Literally nothing in that has anything to do with what you quoted.

Theres been scandal after another with Private sector companies on Public sector contracts. The culture is to milk as much money from the public purse as they can. Rather than fractions of the costs it's been many, many, multiples of the cost. ... And that is not unique to Ireland…and it's got nothing to with WFH..

Wfh isn't going away...

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/remote-jobs-in-ireland-remote-jobs-remote-work-6621845-Feb2025/

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123176947#Comment_123176947

Out sourcing in the private sector has for the most part been a disaster and a lot of outsourcing that was done when it was a hot topic a decade or more ago has been “in-sourced” again. Even then it was mostly call centre type minimum wage type roles rather than skilled roles or roles in regulated, geo sensitive or other areas where it just wouldn’t work. It’s obviously totally unsuitable for public or civil service jobs - illegal actually for the most part.

Just because jobs are being done from home does not make them any more or less “outsourceble” is the bottom line really. If they were rife for outsourcing now they would have been 5 years ago too when being done in the office.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123177820#Comment_123177820

It still boils down to fact there is no active measure of contribution in public sector / civil service beyond office presence.

The incompetence levels in both won’t be addressed by office participation but at least it gives the illusion that theres some recompense for the money spent.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123178456#Comment_123178456

Again nothing to do with the topic title, or anything you quoted.

BrianD3

Further confirmation that the right to request remote work legislation is utter BS. How much time was wasted on producing this legislation.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wrc-has-rejected-all-cases-taken-under-new-remote-and-flexible-working-legislation/a144877132.html

This seems to have been one of Leo Varadkar's whims/spoofs designed to distract people and give them something positive during Covid.

What has changed?

Before legislation:

Employee: Can i work from home?

Employer: No

After legislation:

Employee: Can I work from home?

Employer: (after ticking various boxes , following a procedure and doing some admin) No

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123178456#Comment_123178456

It still boils down to fact there is no active measure of contribution in public sector / civil service beyond office presence.

Repeatedly asserting something doesn't make it true.

And it isn't true. Line departments can generally be divided into process-driven areas and policy areas. Agencies tend to be much more process-driven. And there are absolutely metrics that can be, and are, measured.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123180265#Comment_123180265

So there is a % of civil servants and public sector employees who are dismissed for not achieving assigned measurable performance objectives in a calendar year? If so where can this information be found?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123180366#Comment_123180366

You can always put in an FOI request if you're so motivated. :)

littlefeet

Doing it the right way 😉

Something I saw today regarding work from home, you need to be Chife financial officer or Chife lead tech something or similar totally in control of your own environment, so if you need to take you daughter to an appointment on a Monday morning no issue just shuffle a few meeting no loging off and on no pressure it's plebs who are monitored.

Probably on a couple of hundred grand well.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123180366#Comment_123180366

I'll follow your lead, shall I? No sources, I'll just assert "facts".

124% of civil servants who didn't have performance metrics were dismissed last year! This represents a decrease of 33 1/3 RPM over 2023 stats, which can be explained by the fact that if climate change is real, and I'm not saying it is, God will fix it, according to members of the government.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123181864#Comment_123181864

What are you doing right away?

Putting in an FOI request on behalf of Riddles?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123181864#Comment_123181864

you need to be Chife financial officer or Chife lead tech something or similar totally in control of your own environment

You absolutely don't. I'm a chief of very little and I have complete control over my own schedule, attendance at the office etc. Thousands upon thousands of people in Ireland are in the exact same situation. My boss would laugh if I asked her for an hour off to bring the child to the doctor, because we both know that I work way in excess of my contracted hours.

What people are missing is that getting to this point is no accident. People don't get to "chief" level by constantly ducking out of work or watching the clock, they get there by busting their ass and putting in crazy hours.

So when I hear about things like quiet quitting and all this shyte, I always think "do people really think this is a good idea long-term?". Those people will still be here in 20 years wondering why they can't get ahead in life.

littlefeet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123183687#Comment_123183687

I was slightly joking, I'm sure a lot of private sector jobs give autonomy but it is a truism that the more valuable your skill set or the higher up you go the more autonomy you have.

NIMAN

Interesting to read that 100% of cases taken against employers for the right to wfh have lost.

Only 7 to be fair. But employers winning.

HurlingBoy

It more a poor reflection of the company rather the employees for those that are forcing the Return to Office. Poor performance review systems, poor metrics, lack of motivation, poor management from the top down all leads companies to feel they have to get everyone back in offices. If you are not motivated to do your work at home you are not going to be motivated to do it in the office.