Is it legal to do your own undertaking of a body?

A350-900

Can I go to a hospital, care home etc and claim a body myself? Is there a protocol that hospitals etc can only release a body to an undertaker? I would be planning on going direct to a crematorium and availing of their advertised prices.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058386987/is-it-legal-to-do-your-own-undertaking-of-a-body

Legal or not a crematorium will only deal with a funeral director. You can't book them yourself.

A350-900

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031194#Comment_123031194

So it is a cartel?

I have successfully done my own undertaking on a relative who died in Eastern Europe. The deceased died at home. The doctor came and did the death cert and basically told us you can do as you wish with the body. We put her into a box and dug a hole in the local graveyard, no church services. Cost 100 Euro tops.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031206#Comment_123031206

I have no idea but I used to work in one and there was no way they would deal with the families. All commication is between the funeral directors and the crematorium.

Deregos.

😄 I don't think they'd let just anyone rock up to a crematorium with a dead body, bung them a few quid and ask them to burn a cadaver.

A350-900

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031222#Comment_123031222

If you have the right paperwork, I fail to see a problem.

Pauliedragon

These services have to run with military precision. The funeral directors know the ins and outs of how the procedure works that what makes it run efficiently. You have no experience of this or if something goes wrong like ur late or your car breaks down. Funeral directors have plans in place for all eventualities someone who isn't used to it doesn't. There could be 7 services a day. If one doesn't go to plan it messes up everything for the other families. You'll have to get a funeral director the crematorium won't deal with private individuals.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031241#Comment_123031241

Don't know in Ireland but in UK there is definitely one of the copies of the death certificate that the undertakers require in order to bury the body. iirc its called the Green Form? What they do with it I've no idea but they are keen to get their hands on it when you have registered the death.

A350-900

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031460#Comment_123031460

No service. Just the cremation.

mickdw

It's a good question. Not one too many would have asked though.

I guess you could look up what is involved in setting up as an undertaker to see the requirements

fritzelly

While not illegal to handle it yourself how are you going to transport and hold the remains until burial/cremation? Who is going to do embalming? And so on…

Mortuaries will not hold the remains indefinitely

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031626#Comment_123031626

You can do that but you'll still have to go through a funeral director. How would you get the coffin there anyway?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058386987/is-it-legal-to-do-your-own-undertaking-of-a-body

I imagine one could get the body released without much difficulty.

For commercial and practical reasons a crematorium probably won’t engage with you.

If it was a burial, you might manage it.

I wouldn’t advise it though. My own view is that it would be highly disrespectful to the deceased. If costs are an issue, the state will support the family in engaging an undertaker.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031206#Comment_123031206

Was that burial in Eastern Europe ?
You can’t simply rock up with a corpse to a graveyard here, dig a hole wherever you like and bury the remains . Those responsible for operating the graveyard , usually the County Council , would need to be involved. I think it is one of the oldest Council functions

Peregrinus

There's very little legislation specifically regulating crematoria in Ireland. They have mostly adopted a code of practice based on what is customary or legally required in the UK. Legally, they are free to depart from that code, but they will be very reluctant to do so; there is a reputational risk to them in doing that.

I don't know whether the code of practice requires them to deal only with funeral directors. Others in the thread have suggested that it does, and that sounds plausible to me.

All crematoria will require a medical form to be completed by a doctor who attended the deceased, confirming that the cause of death has been identified, that the death does not need to be referred to the coronor, and that there is no reason why the body should not be cremated. If the deceased died in hospital the hospital doctors will usually provide this form. It will be reviewed by a doctor appointed by the crematorium. You'll need to get this squared off before taking the body to the crematorium. The crematorium may have additional requirements if the cause of death is a notifiable disease.

As others have pointed out, it will be necessary to source a coffin from somewhere (the code does require every body to be brought to the crematorium in a suitable coffin/container/shroud, labelled with the name of the deceased) and appropriate transport will be needed from the hospital to the crematorium. Honestly, the simplest way to arrange both of these things is to engage an undertaker to provide them.

Assuming the paperwork is in order, you can have a body brought straight from the hospital to the crematorium, and cremated without a funeral or service of any kind.

Gloomtastic!

Read about this lot yesterday. If it’s a price issue they may be worth looking at.

https://www.privatecremation.ie/cremations?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAowj_eD44YTb3dhGsYNyISySwZcCZ&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhpr9xrnligMVKZpQBh06YQCXEAAYASAAEgI_S_D_BwE

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058386987/is-it-legal-to-do-your-own-undertaking-of-a-body

Do you have a connection to the body in question or are you just cold calling?

MarkR

Is this because rip.ie went to €100?

I was morbidly curious (pun not intended) and found this

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/lifestages/modi/File%2C14302%2Cen.pdf

watchclocker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032152#Comment_123032152

Apologies I know this is legal discussion but I hope that pun was intended :)

Have been following the thread as it's a very interesting question. When someone dies you just through the standards motions but where you know in advance you might be more interested in looking what your options are.

Also like the transparency of the private cremation site, thank you for posting gloomtastic.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031716#Comment_123031716

You raise an interesting point about "respect for the dead". This is a highly subjective stance. It means different things to different people. Funerals/undertaking/cremation etc should be available for a nominal fee for those with no supernatural beliefs.

blackvalley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031460#Comment_123031460

So what you are saying basically is that if you are “ late for your own funeral “ it’s gonna cause a problem. 😆

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032277#Comment_123032277

Define "Funeral".

If there is no event for public or the family, then the cremator-operators can just do the body when they have time available.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032277#Comment_123032277

Well if u can drive to ur own funeral it'll hurt when u get into the cremator😛

blackvalley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032353#Comment_123032353

According to the Oxford Dictionary it’s “ a ceremony, usually a religious one, for burying or cremating (= burning) a dead person “

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031669#Comment_123031669

..

geotrig

what do the likes of muslims /jewish or other people do in this country , i do believe they tend to treat burial differently but maybe not here ?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032264#Comment_123032264

Why only a nominal fee?

Victor

The requirement is for a proper disposal of human remains (the legal phrase is different). It might be difficult for some or many non-undertakers to fulfil the requirements. For example, coffins are mandatory for burials and there may be non-obvious requirements for cremations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032445#Comment_123032445

There are a few Jewish cemeteries. Some council-owned cemeteries have sections that are assigned to specific groups.

soverybored1878

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031669#Comment_123031669

Roof rack.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123031951#Comment_123031951

This is very helpful, thanks. Interesting to see the very small cost difference between with/without service, which wouldn't be the case in a traditional setting.

I do worry a bit about the idea of pre-paying though. No disrespect to this or any company, but how you know that the company will be around in 10-20 years time to provide the service?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032353#Comment_123032353

That's already what happens. Up to 72 hours may elapse between a funeral/committal service and the oven actually being fired up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032264#Comment_123032264

There's no obvious reason why funeral, cremation or undertaking would cost less for non-believers. Cremation fees, obviously, are the same; they fire up the oven at the same price for believers and non-believer alike. As for funerals, the cost of hiring a celebrant and a suitable venue at commercial rates is probably going to be greater than paying a priest and the fee for the use of a church; there's certainly no reason why it would be less.

Of course, non-believers may dispense with a funeral altogether — have the body sent to the crematorium and cremated with no ceremony of any kind, and no gathering, so no celebrant or venue required. Undertakers will arrange this if desired, and it will be certainly be cheaper than funeral + cremation. The main obstacle to this happening more often that it does is not some sinister undertakers' cartel, but the fact that most people's circle of family and friends will include many who would consider this an inadequate send-off and would be upset by it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123032445#Comment_123032445

The main differences are (a) both Muslims and Jews conduct burials very quickly; ideally by the end of the day after death; (b) Muslims don't favour coffins, but prefer a shroud and wrappings of linen or other fabrics; and (c) Jews prefer to be buried in their own cemetery. Neither group favours cremation, though I don't know if it's actually forbidden. Undertakers will try to cater to these preferences, although rapid burial isn't always possible if, e.g, there has to be a post-mortem.