2025 F1 General Discussion Thread

Paddy_Mag

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492128#Comment_123492128

Could Horner be seen as a way of luring other Red Bull personnel to Italy though?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492290#Comment_123492290

I don't know anything about the inner workings of red bull, but he doesn't strike me as the type of boss that would have people falling over themselves to work with.

Appletart Upsetter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492128#Comment_123492128

Apart from his experience of winning multiple world championships.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492343#Comment_123492343

If you really think that the reason red bull won 8 drivers and 6 constructors is because Horner was in charge, then fine. But if you replace him with another principal at the time they likely still win them all. But replace Max or Seb, or replace Newey - they don't win. Team is falling backwards now as others leave, but he remains.

I think he's the perfect principal for Red Bull. I think he would be absolute disaster at any other team.

naughto

We only see what he is like on tv,they are ruthless an right to be with so much money at stake

prawnsambo

He's divisive enough as it stands. And that accusation of inappropriate behaviour is still hanging over him.

Not sure Ferrari would want that. Anyway they should know at this stage that it's not the TP that's the issue in the team. They're sloppy all the way down and that takes time to fix.

Appletart Upsetter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492533#Comment_123492533

If you really think Christian Horner contributed nothing to Red Bull winning 8 drivers and 6 constructors, then fine.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492648#Comment_123492648

is tht not the job of the TP to fix?
What are the signs the current guy is trying to do that, or up to it?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492867#Comment_123492867

I think the things that make great managers or leaders great, are pretty intangible but very real. I would be shocked if he isn't a great leader and organiser. But it's based on the success of the team over the years, so I don't claim to know

Appletart Upsetter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492931#Comment_123492931

I couldn't agree more.

The team principal is supposed to drive standards throughout the team and create an environment for all personnel to thrive.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492533#Comment_123492533

Horner was in charge when they attracted all that talent. He's the team principal with by far the most proven and accomplished track record on the grid.

He was chosen by Red Bull because of his accomplishments successfully running his own teams in multiple lower Formulas. The team started from nothing, initially taking over the failing Jaguar team that scored just 10 points in the season before and running underpowered cosworth engines also used by Minardi. Within 5 years under Horner's leadership they were winning races and fighting for titles, practically unheard of for a new team, especially one that's not a works manufacturer.

They went on to win 4 WCCs and WDCs in a row, then had the rug pulled out from under them when the engine formula came in and they were left with severely underpowered Renault power unit up against full manufacturer teams. But they chipped away, eventually made a switch to Honda (which a lot of people thought was a mistake at the time after their record with McLaren) and won another 4 WDCs in a row along with two WCCs. They're still in the hunt for this year's WDC and are the only ones outside McLaren with a chance, which is not really the kind of massive fall backwards you're suggesting. Bear in mind that we have a budget cap and a development handicapping system that punishes success since 2022 that never existed before, so winning multiple years in a row is a much bigger achievement now than it ever has been in the past.

Nobody other current TP even comes close to that kind of track record - e.g. with Mercedes their success for the hybrid formula was already baked in thanks to the engine that was already almost fully developed when Toto took over from Ross Brawn (probably the one other guy on Horner's level), and they haven't been able to maintain that once all new regs came in. Who else on the grid has even won anything at all? McLaren have a WCC now but have yet to win a WDC under their current leadership. The only other person on the grid who's won anything is Flavio, but is he someone you'd really want on your team?

And lets be clear, Max didn't just magically appear in a Red Bull, he had an offer for Mercedes before he ever entered F1 but Red Bull made the deal happen to get them in their team. He's now spent 10 years there despite being at the top of every other team's most wanted list and having multiple offers going back to well before he won any championships, but the team managed to keep him and go on and achieve success.

Same can be said for Newey, it was wildly unexpected when he left McLaren for Red Bull. McLaren had been a top team for decades and Red Bull were just a drinks company who'd taken over a backmarker team, but Horner convinced him to join by giving him the freedom and independence he wanted, while also building a very strong relationship with him, that led to Newey spending far more years at Red Bull than he previously had at McLaren or Williams.

By the way, for all the credit Newey gets, in his 10 years at McLaren the team only won a single constructor's championship, while he won four constructors championships within his first 7 years at Red Bull. I have my doubts he'll win any at Aston Martin either, it seems obvious to me that he's gone there for the massive pay check when he's already of retirement age and had been starting to wind down at Red Bull for some time.

So it's a massive simplification to say Red Bull only won because of all the things that were in place to make them succeed, while ignoring that Horner was key to putting those things in place.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492931#Comment_123492931

And have there not been some improvements? The pit stop disasters of previous seasons seem to be eliminated and they are now regularly the quickest on the grid with stops of 2 seconds.

Vasseur can't just fire everybody, the team wouldn't function. But he certainly seems to be driving standards upwards and even though there are still issues, that's to be expected as they implement changes. Strategy calls on the fly still seem to be an issue for example. To me it seems like there's a committee type approach where everything has to be discussed before decisions are made. There's probably an element of fear of making the wrong decision involved, but they are likely to be trying to improve things there. Lewis's "tea break" comment would have stung.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493045#Comment_123493045

I wouldn't discount Horner's part in the Red Bull story at all. But Horner seems to be the kind of character that would thrive in a Red Bull but wouldn't work outside of it. It'd be similar to say Michael O'Leary. Ryanair allow him be a dick and that works for Ryanair. Put him in charge of BA and it would not work. Horner wouldn't work in Ferrari or any other team - unless he owned his own.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493083#Comment_123493083

Ferrari finished 2nd in the WCC in Binotto's last year and was steadily moving forward from a low point of 6th in the WCC a few years before. That momentum was retained for a couple of seasons by not rocking the boat too much, but after the huge mistake of replacing Sainz with a slower more expensive driver while making missteps in car development and leaving lots of points on the table they're 4th in the WCC right now. And they seem to be managing a PR crisis every other race with arguments over pit radio.

I just don't see really see where the improvements have been, fast pitstops don't make up for everything else. We're 8 races into the season and they have 2 podiums. 8 races into Binotto's last season they had 8 podiums including 2 wins.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493163#Comment_123493163

They're 4th, but only one point behind Red Bull and five behind Mercedes. Their two drivers are 5th and 6th and the 'slower' driver is only 16 points back from his teammate despite being in a new team and car for the first time in donkey's years.

Yes, there have been pit radio arguments and definitely issues there to be dealt with. But they aren't that far off second place, so I think it's a bit early to be saying it's a dis-improvement.

dulpit

I don't think it's fair to pay too much attention to the standings this year. With the regulation change next year, teams are all focusing to differing degrees on 2026. If Ferrari screw the pooch next year though then absolutely they should he held accountable.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493258#Comment_123493258

I would have thought that reg changes would cause some serious gaps to develop at first showing. Isn't that what happened the last time with Red Bull starting to dominate?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493282#Comment_123493282

Ya, so if there are obvious serious gaps next year it shows that some teams have prepared better than others. If teams are putting their focus in 2026 and start out with a big gap still, then that's a poor reflection.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493667#Comment_123493667

I think there's an element of luck to it. You wouldn't have called Mercedes or McLaren poorly resourced or managed teams, yet they found themselves floundering after going in the wrong direction initially. Mercedes especially. Remember the horrendous porpoising?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493678#Comment_123493678

Mercedes have been massively disappointing since 2021 and I don't think enough criticism has been placed on Toto's plate for that. I don't think that it was luck, it was they had got used to having the best engine with no major competition.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493695#Comment_123493695

Sorry, but I just can't buy into that view. This is exactly what I was talking about. All the teams had problems with the new regs, even RB. So Mercedes weren't alone in that regard, they were just suffering more and took longer to fix it.

The law of unexpected consequences always affects the start of new regs. Nobody's immune to it. Red Bull have been caught up with and overtaken this time. There's no guarantee they'll be on top of the new ones from the get go, somebody else may well find an edge. And that's part luck and part good engineering.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493726#Comment_123493726

But Mercedes have never solved their issues. They went from being the dominant team to being beaten by a customer team. It's poor.

flazio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493695#Comment_123493695

They have the best engine again, only this time it's in a different car.

Impatience is a plague that seems to be spreading across all world sport. To kick Fred out now would be incredibly short sighted and probably stupid.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493736#Comment_123493736

Ah here, McLaren are far more than a customer team. Yes they use the same engine, but they're a massive team. This isn't a Williams type David v Goliath scenario.

Do you really expect Mercedes to ALWAYS be ahead of McLaren because they use the same engine?

Frank Bullitt

I think we can all agree, a new TP is not all Ferrari need.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493777#Comment_123493777

I don't think they should be as behind as they are.

And I agree with others, Fred Vasseur should stay put in ferrari for a few years yet. Give him a chance.

I'd actually argue that, at the moment, none of the team principals are really doing anything majorly wrong for their teams that would warrant being replaced, with the exception of alpine because who knows what's going on there.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492867#Comment_123492867

Without Dietrich Mateschitz there would be no Red Bull Racing so Horner had the infrastructure available to him to run a successful team, unlike Eddie Jordan for example, who had to build a team himself from nothing. I know Jordan never won titles but I'm just using that example for contrast. Horner seems unable to motivate his best people and hold on to them. Zak Brown, in his much shorter period at McLaren, has done a far more impressive job than Horner has been doing at RB over the last couple of seasons.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497767#Comment_123497767

Zak Brown, in his much shorter period at McLaren, has done a far more impressive job than Horner has been doing at RB over the last couple of seasons.

4 world drivers titles in a row, what in gods name are you talking about?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123497919#Comment_123497919

McLaren's trend is up, red bull's is down?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123498013#Comment_123498013

4 Drivers titles, 3 constructors. Yeah, I would be distraught about that.