Is it possible to take Social Services to Court

Discodog

If they refuse to give an elderly person a pension is there the option to take them to Court ?

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058382932/is-it-possible-to-take-social-services-to-court

I am sure they have given a good reason for not giving the person a pension.

Discodog

No. Not at all. They have lied - for example telling him to get a Late Birth Certificate that the registrar says doesn't exist - there's no such thing . Taking 3 months asking the same questions that have already been answered multiple times.

The question is whether there is the provision to take them to Court ?

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122911037#Comment_122911037

I assume it is a non contributory pension he is looking for. Did he ever pay tax? They are being scammed left right and centre so they can be pedantic and slow in some cases.

Firblog

Have you tried gov.ie - Social Welfare Appeals Office

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122911037#Comment_122911037

The first step would be to appeal the decision to the Social Welfare Appeals Office. This is a government body which is independent of the social welfare staff who have assessed the matter to date.

The appeal must be lodged within 21 days of the decision letter being issued by social welfare.

Thereafter, if the outcome still wasn’t favourable, you could refer the matter to office of the Ombudsman or seek a judicial review in the courts.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122911037#Comment_122911037

has he not got a birth certificate?

or are they looking for a long birth certificate?

A350-900

It seems that SW have not actually made a decision that can be appealed.

You need a written refusal before you can go to SWAO. They can drag it out for a long time without issuing a formal refusal.

animalinside

In theory you can take anyone to court but it would cost an incredible amount of money and they will in the end say they are the experts, they know what they're doing and will rule against you.

Just go to the ombudsman, he is interested in doing things fairly and there's no reason why he/she would decide in your favour if your claim is clearly correct.

Mrs OBumble

I would suggest trying Citizen's Information first: they can help resolve issues like the Welfare staff member asking for Form X, which has since been replaced by Certificate Y so the other authority says it doesn't exist.

Then there's the appeals authority.

And (expensive) court processes after that.

Be aware that sometimes people don't tell you the full story about what happened in their interaction with Welfare: if you weren't at the interview or reading the letter, you may not have all the details.

Discodog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122911365#Comment_122911365

This is the issue.

In 2023 they told him that he needed a "Late Birth Certificate" It took months to discover that this doesn't exist & the Registrar said that Welfare were "trying to put him off".

In September Intreo took some details, delayed a couple of months & then said that the matter must be referred to the Discretionary Board of Client Identity Services. All the Intreo correspondence was copied to the Board but 4 weeks later the Board replied asking for the same information.

So they are just deliberately going round in circles. He is in poor health & badly needs the pension.

The Ombudsman is involved but they are also taking months & not conveying information.

His TD, who's offering support, referred to Intreo as a law to themselves.

banie01

The "Late" birth certificate request needs clarification IMO. Is it that Intro actually want the mans' "Long" birth certificate? Or is their an issue with the claimants actual birth registration that now intro are seeking to have regularised via some form of late registration?

Given that the man is in communication with Intreo, can we assume that they have lain out in black & white precisely what form of birth certificate they want? As if they've asked for just a "late" birth certificate without clarification or specificity? I'd be passing that to the appeals board too.

The 1st port of appeal is the SW appeals process but any appeal is dependent upon a refusal 1st being issued.

In the interim, whilst the application is in limbo, see about applying for a supplementary welfare allowance.

gipi

Intreo offices don't process pension applications, they are handled by an office in Sligo An intreo office might take in an application, but they can't make any decisions on it.

If Client Identity Services are involved, it sounds like there is a problem regarding the person's registered identity - their original birth registration.

Discodog

It was clearly a Late Birth Cert - it was written down by Intreo.

In any event we know that he was unofficially adopted from Ireland to the UK & the birth mother is not know & the birth wasn't recorded. So there is no record & this wasn't unusual in the 1950's.

The matter is now with the Discretionary Board of CIS & it seems clear from their actions that they plan to just delay indefinitely.

If it possible to claim Supplementary Welfare without a PPS or PSC ?

What route is there if the Board won't give a decision & just leave it in limbo ?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912429#Comment_122912429

How has he functioned for ~70 years without a PPS number? Presumably he has National Insurance details from the UK - I'd suggest digging down that path to see what was used to obtain that.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912429#Comment_122912429

So to be clear, there is no actual documentary evidence the man is Irish? Nor of his original birth being registered? Nor evidence of whom his mother is?

I think it would be extremely difficult to register a birth 70yrs or so after the fact. I have personal experience of having a birth record amended by court order but in that instance, there was an existing record in the 1st instance. I don't know what procedure would be followed where no record and no known parent are available.

Can I ask them is the pension application stalled at the Intreo, identity verification/PPSN application stage rather than an actual pension application and refusal?

Given he was adopted in to the UK, what is his British pension status? Make sure that any N.I contribution record there is chased up.

Seeking what I assume given the details you've added, is a non contributory pension for an applicant whose age, identity and entitlement cannot be confirmed via documentary evidence is going to be (as you've already found) tough.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058382932/is-it-possible-to-take-social-services-to-court

They clearly want to know who he is and what age he is. He doesn't have the normal proofs that most people have. Secondary evidence will have to be obtained. Has he done DNA testing? Has he got school attendance records? Work records? A passport, driving licence?
Just because someone is elderly and in bad health doesn't entitle them to a pension.
A court case based on what you are posting would be lunacy.

blackbox

Is he not entitled to a UK pension?

StormForce13

The use of the term "social services" suggests that the OP is writing from a UK perspective.

Other than what you "unofficially" know about his birthplace, what other involvement with Ireland has the applicant got?

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122912321#Comment_122912321

There can be issues with the PPS numbering system - sometimes the number used for tax doesn't match the PPS number with social welfare.

If that is an factor, it may be causing the delays. Unfortunately, there are other issues which can cause delays as well & SW are notorious for not replying.

There's not really anymore you can be doing at this stage.

MarkR

So the person says they are Irish, but they don't have proof. It's not that they're refusing them a pension, they need to make sure they are entitled first. Does the person have documentation to show they were born in Ireland?

Discodog

It would be helpful if people could read before they type.

He was born in Ireland & is now living back in Ireland. The recent ML10 form is testimony to how many older people could not prove their ID. People have short, memories. The ML10 disappeared around 2018 but wasn't replaced - it was assumed that people would make do.

I am informed that he isn't an outlier. There are plenty of others in the same situation. The government introduced a system for sworn affidavits for refuges - many of them have no proof of ID. But they don't appear to be offering it for Irish citizens.

It's not just the difficulty of proof. He has been asked, exactly the same questions, over & over again by different groups who don't bother to share information as if it will eventually change the answer.

It's clearly a deliberate tactic to make him go away.

The current agency is the Discretionary Board. The name suggests a level of discretion regarding proof of ID but not so far.

In the very early days of this someone suggested that it would be much easier to buy a fake ID - looks like they were right.

L1011

The ML10 form was for people with no photo ID, not for people who couldn't prove they existed.

How have they gone through life with no PPS or UK NI numbers?

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122913581#Comment_122913581

National insurance number then PPSN?

Mrs OBumble

A thought: see if Age Concern can assist.

If it is a common problem they may know what buttons to push.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122914071#Comment_122914071

An ML10 form wouldn't have been sufficient for the purpose you seem to be encountering. Further, making the definitive assertion that he was born in Ireland? When his mother is unknown and no birth certificate exists, whilst it may be and indeed likely is true. Is unprovable without documentary evidence.

You are seeking to have a pension awarded to a person without a PPS, which also means the person has no Tax or PRSI history to attest to their working history in Ireland.

Other posters have mentioned following up with the UK regarding their National Insurance history there to see if there is a pension entitlement there that can be availed of. That's a good starting point.

The discretionary board still needs some form of evidence to ascertain the man's age and entitlement to a non-co tributary pension. As it stands, without a birth certificate, it is impossible to even confirm this man's age let alone any pension entitlement.

School records, an NI contribution history from the UK and any other evidence such as driving license or passports, albeit without a birth certificate? It's unlikely the man ever had a passport issued.

All of these types of supporting evidence will go a long way towards establishing the claimants age and identity.

Without such evidence? The board is left relying upon the man's word and that isn't sufficient.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122914071#Comment_122914071

It is a very unusual solution. He went through his life without getting his affairs in order. Has he got UK ID and/or tax details? If yes then a UK pension might be easier to get.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122914204#Comment_122914204

PPS numbers sometimes don't match on the two systems.

Not sure how this happens, but when company directors were filling in their Wbens, there were lots of examples. Probably occurred when they merged the PAYE / social welfare systems in the 70s, but I had examples of people who started work after the merge with 2 PPS numbers.

So if the person worked in Ireland, or had social welfare, or had to file a tax return in Ireland, the PPS used may not match their social welfare number. It has actually happened for persons to be refused a pension until this was resolved. The client identity department may be able to help in this instance.

Claw Hammer

Up till 1978, employees had an insurance number and the employer kept a card which had to be franked weekly with a stamp. The cost of the stamp was borne by both the employee and employer. PAYE employees had a separate PAYE number for their income tax.

Both of these numbers were only allocated when a person began work.

In 1978 from the 6th April, the two systems were combined. The PAYE number became the RIS number and the cards were abolished and replace by PRSI which was collected with the PAYE. For some years after 1978 both the Revenue Commissioners and the Social Welfare issued RSI numbers. This led, in some case to people being issued with two RSI numbers. There were also mismatches in associating the old PAYE numbers with the correct Insurance number. People applying for pensions since 1978 who started work before 6th April 1978 have the insurance record partly on the old card system and partly on the PRSI system.
Eventually Social Welfare took over issuing the RSI numbers which were renamed the PPS number. They started issuing them to children when the Children's Allowance was applied for and, after some years, they began issuing them at birth.

It does happen that some elderly self employed people never had PAYE< RSI or PPS number. What is less explicable is why there is no documentation for the person showing driving licence passport school attendance medical records etc.
The o/p does not seem to be pro-active on sourcing documentation and seems to be blaming other people for the situation.
If this person did a DNA test it may well result in relatives being identified.

Sleepy

It sounds like Welfare are doing their job here tbh. Unless he can prove he's Irish, and not just a Brit looking to take advantage of Ireland's more generous welfare system, why should they give him a pension?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917882#Comment_122917882

But British citizens are entitled to claim social welfare in Ireland the exact same a a Irish citizens, perhaps pensions are different?