The Paradox of Tolerance

JupiterKid

Has anyone else heard of the paradox of tolerance first posited by the philosoper Karl Popper in 1945?

Popper's thesis was that open, secular and tolerant societies that tolerate sub-societies within them that are deeply intolerant would eventually become intolerant themselves, and that a tolerant society would need to resist and not tolerate intolerant views if it is to have a long-term future.

This paradox is often exemplified with respect to Islamic closed communities that are deeply incompatible with open, Western secular host societies and the inevitable division, hatred and intolerance that results - leading to violence, rioting and terrorism. Western governments have done nothing to properly integrate these communities and instead espouse the cowardly, lazy and discredited "multicultural" laissez-faire model. Pretending that all is well and the need for "mutual respect" when in reality no such mutual respect exists and deep tensions are building under the surface.

It can also be applied to Christian religious fundamentalist closed communities in the USA and their role in slowly dismantling the coherence of the Union. Once a society tolerates growing intolerance, that society is doomed in the long term.

Food for thought indeed.

JupiterKid

Just a little surprised that no-one has responded to this thread yet, given how important this issue is to most Western countries today.

Basically - if a nation or society is to remain free and tolerant, it should in no way permit intolerant views and closed communities to gain traction.

RiderOnTheStorm

very topical in last few years all right. Sounds very interesting. Is this a nice way of saying that a few rotten apples will spoil the whole barrel? In other words, not everyones opinion is valid (which I totally agree with), but thats a judgement then, isnt it? I will decide who is valid …. Then again, drawing the line at intolerance does seem to be a good measure. How would this be implemented in a nationwide environment? When in Rome, do as the Romans? ie everyone must obey the laws of the land, and not choose their own (not just talking about religion here, but also the so called Freemem of the land that dont recognise 'my' laws)

o1s1n

You don't need to look outside of our Island to imported religions like Islam to see this paradox in action.

How about when the tolerant society is being lead, to a degree, by an intolerant institution?

The Church's views on gay rights, abortion and Women's rights in general could be viewed as extremely intolerant.

But Catholicism is the prevailing religious culture in our society.

So do we tolerate their intolerance as they are 'our culture'?

If so, how can we then call ourselves a 'tolerant western society'?

Or, do we not tolerate their intolerant views (which we seem to be doing with the recent gay rights / marriage referendum), but then are we being intolerant of 'our culture'?

L Grey

Who gets to decide who is intolerant and closed?

RiderOnTheStorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917726#Comment_122917726

I would say its the law of the land that decides. And we can change that if our views change. For example, the church was/is intolerant of the gay community but being gay is (now) legal and you cant discriminate against someones sexuality. Women could not vote for a long time, but now they can. If the 'rules' of a closed group runs against the laws of the land, then I would say that they are intolerant.

L Grey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917787#Comment_122917787

So anything that goes against the prevalent hive-mind beliefs is intolerant.

Not sure Karl Popper is going to be remembered as a great thinker.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917717#Comment_122917717

That kind of ignores the fact that the Catholic church in Ireland is pretty much a non entity for anyone under the age of 40

I’m 28 and I don’t know a single person my age that is a regular mass goer and honestly anyone that was would likely be viewed as a bit weird

Mass attendances are at their lowest rates ever and dropping, there have never been so few Irish priests getting ordained

The marriage and the equality referendums showed what kind of sway Catholic dogma has over the people of Ireland when it comes to political views and rights

There is still reasonable cultural component of Catholicism entwined with Irish culture but I would describe that as vestigial at best. They’re an irrelevance really

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917717#Comment_122917717

They are intolerant views but compared to much of the world they would be at the milder end of the spectrum.

For a lot of the world Franco's Spain would be unduly tolerant and he wasnt Scandinavian hippie.

Dogsdodogsstuff

I find the contradictions when comes to the topic of religious discussion quite interesting. In fact, the basic “be decent and part of a community” principles behind Catholicism (today) is something that’s really lacking in many people’s lives. I don’t know many people who are content with their bit, ironically the few religious ones are far happier. Having a more spiritual connection in life is more meaningful then looking at everything wrong.

All Religion isn’t bad, no more then politics or capitalism or anything else you can think of in a “the world would be better without that” context. I default to the status that all things are eventually corrupted by people and the influence these bad eggs can have will determine the net negative impact it will have.

I mean , do most catholics in Ireland today subscribe to some of the more out of date things like Gay and contraception questions? So, is it fair to say that many are taking an independent, more progressive approach to some of these intolerant and relatively redundant teachings ? I think so and think rather then have a “religion must go” approach, trying to have a less extreme amended version is preferable.

I also think there’s an awful lot of good things about religion (I don’t practise but I can see wider benefits) , community projects/interaction, spiritual practises, general try and be good influence.

The caveat is of course extreme religious people or groups are the exception. I’m talking here about our Irish experience with Catholicism today that I don’t feel is anywhere near as toxic as it was and does bring a lot of benefits.

I feel the way society is going , it’s just as easy for humans to be manipulated by , for example, social media as it is for those doing what the pope tells them. We aren’t moving on from religion, we are just adopting a different form of it. “Cancel culture” is just one adaptation which is supposed to address perceived intolerance.

I think people don’t really reflect on the fact we are a species that thrives on community and the things that connect/divide us. If or when religion is gone, something else will take its place and it may be worse or easier to corrupt.

My “money” (thank you Lord of financial industry) is on some sort of capitalistic shallow ideal (which is sort of already here) , with private company’s possibly replacing the funding for church sponsored schools and having more influence on curriculum.

Strumms

I think society here is undeniably tolerant.

You can practice any and every religion without fear of consequence.

Regardless of gender, sexuality, religion etc you can work.

You can go get drunk, smoke a cigarette, you can on the other hand completely abstain.

You can wear any clothing, you don’t have to keep arms, face, legs etc covered up, of course if you want to, you can have at it.

You can pick up the phone and discuss joining a local soccer, GAA, tennis, golf, ten pin bowling club. Regardless of gender.

You can decide yourself not to do work on a certain day of the week if your religion wants you not to and you agree.

Yes society isn’t going to hold people’s hands, we don’t have the ability to. So anyone coming here needs to plan and be proactive in sorting out and making a life for themselves. Don’t come her and complain. Information is at your fingertips, literally, you can find out about irish people and life here, every aspect of it by just going online. If what you find isn’t compatible with your religious, social or world view, don’t come.

When I went to live abroad my job and accommodation was sorted in advance . I’d researched how to buy my metro pass and worked out most of the other machinations of life there. Personal responsibility was popular back in the day and defaulting to other people to sort all your shît out or compromise their standards or way of life was definitely not a thing and in fact was frowned upon.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917824#Comment_122917824

I will say, although you are correct, 28 year olds still have youth on their side. There's a nonchalance we all have/had at that age when it comes to our own mortality.

It will be interesting to see how things go as our religiously emancipated generation gets closer to the abyss themselves.

I hope we don't see people swaying back that way as they get older but you never know, existential crisis when you hit middle age can be a difficult one :eek:

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917835#Comment_122917835

True and I totally agree, but there's a bit of whataboutism going on with this.

There'll always be something worse than the thing you find intolerant within your own society. Doesn't mean it's not worth discussing because of it.

Capt'n Midnight

Tolerance is part of the social contract.

A two way system where when you didn't tolerate others they wouldn't have to tolerate you anymore.

There's another danger where some businesses sects infiltrate organisations or use lawyers to cut down criticism by having bigger wallets.

Dogsdodogsstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122918559#Comment_122918559

No atheists in fox holes comes to mind.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122919079#Comment_122919079

Tolerance is bred into us through our rigidly conformed education system. A system in itself that is still highly intolerant to the needs of those who don’t flourish in a “read this text and regurgitate it in a one off exam to show us how intelligent you are”. I find our education system intolerant to different, if you don’t comply

A lot of the things like sense of community , moral framework, meaning/purpose, cultural contributions have been driven by religion. My concern is what will drive these things going forward. It’s not that there can’t be better alternatives , but you need only look at how people are choosing to follow their own paths.

I find it paradoxical that people often assume ‘no religion is good’ without considering where people will seek meaning and authority in its absence. Removing religion doesn’t automatically result in people thinking more objectively; it simply shifts their focus to other sources of influence. For instance, the immense sway individuals like Elon Musk have over public perception or the lobbying power of private institutions, such as those shaping climate change policy or Big Pharma promoting ‘our drugs are good,’ show how people gravitate toward new ‘belief systems.’ It seems that many are looking in the wrong places for societal dangers—fixating on the historical flaws of religion, particularly Catholicism in Western democracies, while overlooking the potential threats posed by unchecked corporate and institutional power.

Again, I think in western democracies we can keep bending religion to our more tolerant ethical ways and keep it. If anything it could be a stronger ethical regulator of the more divided monetised value world.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058382328/the-paradox-of-tolerance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122916907#Comment_122916907

Hi JupiterKid,

I would have responded to your OP if I'd seen it - I tend not to frequent AH unless something catches my eye by chance.

It's an interesting conundrum all right. A fair and healthy society does demand acceptance of a wide range of opinions and beliefs, but who gets to decide which beliefs we're tolerant of? And how do we prevent the tolerance that has brought great improvements in Irish society (divorce, gay rights…) from being weaponised to bring about dis-improvements?

I don't have any answers, but I have noticed a worrying trend in society in general, that's reflected on here. Have a look at any thread on CA, and you'll find the discussions tend to get polarised, with some groups of people chanting their mantra and/or refusing to entertain any reasonable examination of their opinions or reasons for holding them. People are getting warnings and bans that seem unjustified. What I'm looking for is an improvement in the level of discourse, but I've no idea how to achieve it, either here or in the wider world.

orourkeda1

I hate everyone. Tolerate my arse.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122917813#Comment_122917813

i don't think popper was making that judgment call himself, just that an openly tolerant society will struggle to deal with intolerance.

popper is already regarded as one of the most influential thinkers of the 20th century FWIW. especially in the arena of scientific philosophy.

El_Duderino 09

Tolerance has limits through the law so it's not absolute. We generally don't tolerate murder or theft or discrimination.

When it comes to tolerating Muslims (as the OP alludes to), it depends on what they do and whether it has an impact on people outside their own voluntary grouping.

IIf Muslims want to fast during Ramadan, go for it. If they tried to tell non-muslims to fast during Ramadan, then no. No Muslim has ever told me to observe their religious customs, so I generally don't worry about it.

What specifically do you think we should be intolerant of when it comes to Muslims? One thing I know for sure is that trying to suppress religion or culture is a great way to push people into it. See Irish history for examples.

csirl

I dont agree with the way religon is treated as something special that needs to be accommodated. I dont think employers should be obliged to accommodate religious staff in order to comply with discrimination laws. For example, the person who doesnt want to work sundays for religious reasons in a 24/7 employer with shift work should not be treated any different to another employee who doesnt want to work sundays as they"re playing a match or they want to watch their favourite TV show.

Religion is a lifestyle choice and should be treated the same as any other lifestyle choice e.g. being a biker, Star Wars fan, sports nut or lego enthusiast.

magicbastarder

freedom to practice your religion at a societal level is not the same as freedom to practice your religion within a workplace, though.

as a society, we say 'you are free to practice your religion as long as it does not directly impact others'. there's no law which states that say, someone who believes left handed people are an abomination can be prosecuted for refusing to talk to a southpaw. but if you were facing that behaviour in an office, such religious fervour would soon see you out of a job.

JupiterKid

Good to see this thread finally grow legs - I think it's an important topic for debate.

Religion should not be an excuse for intolerant behaviour towards others but history has shown that religion has caused untold conflict, misery and suffering through history as one group did not tolerate another with wars and bloodshed as a result.

The same goes for divergent views on nationality and the role of women and minorities in society. For any given society to function effectively and harmoniously, there must be boundaries and limits to the expression of divergent and opposing views or otherwise these opposing forces will become emboldened and more pronounced to the point of direct conflict which can easily result in violence and threaten the cohesion of a given society.

America and its rapid decline over the past 25 years into deepening divisions along the lines of race, religion and women's basic rights is a good case in point.

Ireland needs to be very mindful of the experience of other countries and ensure that whilst a diversity of cultures, beliefs and opinions are respected, no group or individual has the right to impose their views on others to the detriment of their well-being and that of wider society.

I also think that proper and coherent integration of minorities into a host country is critically important and something that Western governments have ignored and neglected for far too long with very serious consequences as a result.

Akrasia

In order to have free speech, you have to have some restrictions on free speech. In order to have a tolerant society, you have to restrict intolerance.

In order to have peace, you need to have the means to protect against violence sometimes by using violence.

The reasons why extremism is rare in nature is because taking anything to one extreme opens up vulnerability.

The most successful organisms are the ones that can tolerate wide ranges of conditions and adapt without becoming locked into one environment.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122921613#Comment_122921613

You have alluded to something the Muslims are doing in Ireland that we shouldn't tolerate, but you haven't given examples. Could you give some examples?

JupiterKid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122921696#Comment_122921696

I don't see where I specifically alluded to Muslims in Ireland in my posts - just that Islamic communities in Western countries tend to be deeply closed communities (as fundamentalist Christian and other groups can be as well) and this leads to problems in terms of a lack of integration with their host societies, ghettoisation and developing mistrust and tensions which then spill over into conflicts in terms of basic values that can be at odds with that of open, tolerant societies.

Is is too much to expect closed and isolated communities in a given society to respect their host societies' innate values of freedom and equal rights for all and attempt to integrate more deeply so that although opposing views and values of disparate groups are acknowledged, there should be a tacit social contract in place in ensure that divisions and mistrust are are mitigated in order for conflicts and tensions to be managed effectively and peacefully to the benefit of society as a whole?

Going down the road of pretending there is not a serious problem in this context is to nobody's advantage - appeasing and accommodating intolerant views from any group in society is a road to ruin for societies. Look at how the Weimar Government in post WW1 Germany tolerated the growth of Naziism in the 1920s and where that ultimately led.

I believe Karl Popper was referring to extreme ideologies taking hold in 1920s/1930s Europe, the lack of governments keeping such extremism in check - and the resulting bloodshed of World War 2 when he wrote his Paradox of Tolerance essay in 1945.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122921848#Comment_122921848

You're right, you didn't mention Ireland explicitly. You said western, secular host nations.

Now that's out of the way, are you going to give any examples of what behaviours we should be intolerant of and how we should express our intolerance towards Muslims in these other countries?

Deleted. I re-read the first post.

Dogsdodogsstuff

How do people propose handling intolerant religions, especially in a global trade environment? For most countries, unless you’re the USA or entirely self-sufficient, it’s difficult to impose zero-tolerance policies without facing significant economic or political backlash.

Cancel culture seems to be one way people decide, often indiscriminately, who deserves condemnation. The problem is, once someone is labeled, even if proven innocent, the stigma often sticks.

But the bigger issue is weakness of Western democracies…. Money. It undermines moral and ethical standards when the price is right. You can almost guarantee that, somewhere, Ireland is benefiting from tolerating something unpopular. Greed, self-interest, and denial are tolerated far more than we’d like to admit, and these are bigger problems than most of the issues discussed here.

It’s easy to point fingers at other communities or demand they be held to higher standards. But rarely do we look in the mirror and ask whether our own tolerance is rooted in what benefits us. It’s like working for a tobacco company and condemning smoking online—hypocritical and self-serving. If we want meaningful change, we need to address the incentives and compromises that allow these tolerances to thrive in the first place.

I’d argue that if everyone learned to honestly engage in self-reflection, none of these issues would exist. Instead, we’ve been conditioned to become experts at pointing fingers elsewhere, ensuring that the weeds in our own garden remain hidden. If everyone swept their side of the road , the streets would always be clean.

COVID

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122920268#Comment_122920268

Only if you promise to stop talking through it!

Rooks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058382328/the-paradox-of-tolerance

I heard of this. When the immigration into Europe began to increase significantly around 2014/15 I predicted that this would lead to the rise of the far right in Europe. Anyone I told at the time looked at me like I had three heads. Oh well.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122921848#Comment_122921848

Sorry but there's a few assumptions.

Firstly that these groups are closed. what does that mean? most will work in the community, their kids will go to school in the community, etc.

Secondly, that they don't value freedoms. Who says they don't? In the US you'll find that evangelicals are probably the most likely to scream about freedom.

And it's also assuming that "non-isolated" communities are valuing those freedoms more.

You make a good case against it yourself. The nazi's didn't come from a minority group. They targeted minority groups that they said were harming what they believed Germany should be.