Prime Marciano v Prime Tyson: The Immovable Object v the Unstoppable Force!

The Golden Miller

Who would win this match up, and it's rarely discussed. People tend to dismiss Marciano and say he wouldn't be a Heavyweight today, but he would move up the ranks, clearing out everyone. Even in his day, everyone he fought was bigger and heavier. I don't believe any of the Heavyweights today would stand up to his body shots. He hit far far harder than his weight suggested, and was impossible to put down and keep down. He fought in a weak era or made the era look weak? Everyone he fought, even then, was bigger.

Mike Tyson in his prime, was vicious, ferocious, like a pitbull, and I dont think at his best, any boxer who ever lived would be able to withstand his onslaughts……. anyone but Marciano. It really is a case of the immovable object meeting the unstoppable force. But I've pretty much fallen asleep to all Marciano's fights, and despite his size, he was a freak of nature. What he could withstand.

We talk about heavyweights getting bigger and more powerful, not one of them has the power in their locker to put Marciano down imo. But a fantasy match up with Tyson, where he takes an unholy beating for at least 5 rounds, would really test his metal. But I still believe Marciano would come out on the other side standing, and then start to come into the fight.

People talk about these hypothetical match ups, but this is the most intriguing of the lot imo. I don't actually think even Tyson could put Marciano down and keep him there. Marciano was old school, built different, as tough and as hardy as they came. Whether you agree with him being the best, or not being a heavyweight today, there's no denying how tough and resilient he was. Could Tyson put him down? Because if he didn't, Marciano would eventually put Tyson down!

I think people retrospectively dismiss Marciano these days due to his size, go back and watch his fights. He was a machine!

megadodge

I'm not a huge Tyson fan, but I think this is a terrible matchup for Marciano. He'd be doing well to make it out of the first two rounds!

The biggest difference here would be speed. Tyson is so much faster than Marciano, it's not even close. Plus he throws his very hard punches in educated and again, very fast combinations.

Marciano was a hard hitter and may well be the best-conditioned heavyweight of all time, but Tyson had a very good chin and I don't see Marciano denting him at all. Plus, Tyson was actually very hard to hit. Where I see Rocky standing a chace is if he withstood the early onslaught (something I dont' think he could do) he might eventually start wearing Tyson down and Tyson wasn't the strongest mentally when somebody stood up to him.

The reality though is, if Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore were able to put Rocky down with just one punch, I can't see him withstanding a much harder puncher's combinations for very long.

And Tyson was 2 stones heavier. Rocky did NOT constantly face much bigger men, especially in his short championship reign. Jersey Joe was heavier all right, but he was 38 in the first match, which was absolutely ancient by the standards back then. La Starza and Ezzard Charles were around the same weight, though of course, Ezzard was a former much-avoided middleweight, who moved up in weight in order to get fights. Not being facetious, but Don Cockell was a fat light-heavy. Fat because he had glandular issues, he wasn't a real heavy. And Archie Moore was in his 40s and also a middleweight at this prime who was avoided at the lower weight for years until they thought he was too old and gave him a chance at the light-heavy crown.

I know it sounds bad, but without trying to disrespect Rocky, I think if he wasn't white, there wouldn't be half the adoration for him there is. There are lots of heavyweights in history that would beat him.

walshb

Tyson hit hard, clean and fast. Rocky I think gets clipped clean and hard with uppercuts and doesn't take the power. Also, Rocky's shots were a little crude, wild, telegraphed. Tyson exploits this to get his power shots in faster and cleaner.

I cannot see a way Rocky wins this, and even over 12 rds, Tyson at his best could box, had a great chin, good stamina and a very neat defense.

Size wise they were similar height and width, but Tyson was in the 215-220 lbs range, whereas Rocky was 190 lbs at best

p4p, which I am not a fan of, Rocky rates very highly for me. He was excellent

banie01

Prime Tyson was an absolute beast. Aggression, power and absolute unrestrained fury. Honestly still think that peak Tyson beats any HW. Rocky could take unbelievable punishment and keep coming forward but it would IMO end up quite like Drederick Tatum V Homer Simpson

Morrison J

Tyson would have absolutely obliterated Marciano.

monkeybutter

Buster Douglas takes them both

The Golden Miller

People really do underestimate Marciano. The size of the guys arms, he breaks ribs. This 180 pound stuff is mute, he hit far harder than anyone at 180 pounds. He was one of the hardest hitters ever

The Golden Miller

People say Marciano's offense was too slow and laboured. They miss the point. He took punches to the face, so the other fighter would open up. The minute they hit him, he went for the ribs.

He'd hit Tyson with body shots, everytime Tyson would step in for a combination. Rocky wouldn't need to land as much to hurt Tyson, than Tyson would to hurt Rocky. He made a career of taking a shot to the face, to get on the inside

Contraire to the assumptions here, Marciano hit harder. Once he lands a few body shots, Tyson feels it. Rocky was granite, Tyson could be got at!

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122845407#Comment_122845407

A 1980s Tyson versus a 50s Marciano? Tyson of course

He never took punches to the face from a fighter with the power of Tyson

Be over by the 3rd

Other than that boxing is as dirty as it gets

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122845435#Comment_122845435

Rocky may get put down, but couldn't be kept down tbh. He just keeps coming. He keeps coming. I genuinely don't believe anything keeps him down and walking forward. Absolute granite!

Marciano is the hardest hitter ever!

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122845630#Comment_122845630

He was fighting people from the 1950s

No say he hits as hard as those who came later

squinn2912

Tyson wins in disturbing fashion. Absolute trauma. If Rocky fights like he fought he gets wiped out. Boxing moved on so much between 60s and 80s

The Golden Miller

People say this match up is a landslide, but would be skeptical if Ali would beat Marciano. And people would be skeptical if Tyson could beat Ali. I also assumed it would be a given, in a hypothetical match up, a fighter from the past, would be brought up to all the strenght, conditioning and advancements of a modern athlete.

Funnily enough, those advancements would do little for Marciano. I sort of laugh at the idea his offence was slow and laboured, it was actually very specific, to do what he did best… grind. If hurt with uppercuts, wouldnt actually be stupid enough to keep employing that tactic, believe it or not.

Tysons style of fighting, was built on what Marciano did, with "advancements". But didn't cover everything. Tyson was effective with his speed and peekaboo style, but it forwent some very important elements in how Marciano fought, by its very nature.

What many criticise in the Marciano offense, is that he was slow and laboured. It led many into that false sense of security. Even if you were expecting it, it was the change of speed when he then attacked. Its what made him so effective getting on the inside. Its rarely been done before or since.

People say Marciano was just a brawler, a pressure fighter, fought in weak era and would be a modern day middle weight. You don't have his record without skill and craft, the nuances of how he fought obviously going above many so called boxing experts. He didn't "not defend" for its sake, it was a dummy tactic to change pace to get on the inside.

It's amazing how underestimated he was. Look at an interview or picture with him and see the size of his arms, then talk about mismatches cause he "only weighed 180 pounds". The guy broke ribs. Pure granite

megadodge

"…but would be skeptical if Ali would beat Marciano"

Who exactly is sceptical of that?

Most would favour Ali.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122845630#Comment_122845630

How do you think his 185 lbs frame takes full flush Tyson shots?

I mean, think of say the right hand that dropped a 225 lbs Holmes and had him badly hurt, or the right uppercut that Tyson detonated on a 230 lbs Bruno?

Or the series of heavy shots that took out a 220 lbs Pinklon Thomas.

All clearly bigger men than Rocky..

I’m not buying this “couldn’t be kept down” angle. Rocky was still just a man. He wasn’t superman

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859129#Comment_122859129

TBH, I've often read of Marciano struggling to bulk up, regardless of what weights he did etc. The point is, for his frame to be 180 pounds, is misleading in that sense. He was far stronger and well built than another fighter of a similar frame. He was more the equivalent of someone that would be 230 pounds, in how hard he hit, and how well built he was. It's no coincidence too, he could endure far more, and hit far harder, than anyone else of his frame and build.

And that is the crux in many ways, of why he's wrote off. In a world of stats, many people haven't actually watched him, and just look at what he weighed, and churn out the "he was only 180 pounds" line, and "wouldn't even be a cruiseweight today". It's disingenious in the extreme.

You dont do what he did in any era weighing 180 pounds, if there wasn't more to the story. And as I said, the most overlooked facet of his style, was taking a dummy jab to the face, with a then sudden change of speed to get on the inside. His style was far more nuanced than it appears at first look. His defence too. And when he landed, you felt it. His power is notorious, often said like getting hit with rocks.

The other factor people don't realise, is Marciano was a similar height to Tyson. By that very nature, Tyson coming in and rising with an uppercut to a taller opponent, doesn't have the same velocity with Marciano. And unlike other fighters Tyson fought, Marcianos head is constantly moving side to side, Tyson, although connecting, isn't hitting Marciano as clean as another fighter.

It wasn't Tysons power per say, it was his lightning combinations that were devasting. The opponent being swarmed by punches and stunned so to speak. With Marcianos constant bobbling head movement, and the lack of velocity compared to what Tyson would have against another fighter, he isn't stunning or swarming Marciano in the same way, who himself is gearing up for a sudden change of pace to the inside, with one Tyson miss.

There's a lot of nuances to this match up often overlooked and not considered. Even if Tyson wins this, he doesn't get out without taking alot of damage to the body. And it's a points win

walshb

I’ve watched a lot a Rocky and read couple books on him. I’m a fan. I rate him quite high. He had very subtle and nuanced skills. More than just a brawler. And p4p he rates in my top 5 ever. I still think prime Tyson’s a bad matchup for him

And it was Tyson’s power. Combined with speed and follow up and variation. But was the force of his punches that did real damage…

Similar match is Frazier v Rocky. I got Rocky 8/10 times. Why? Joe really only had a left hook, (ok, had bit more, but ya get my point) and wasn’t as quick with feet/hands as Tyson, nor had the combinations. He was also only 10-15 lbs or so heavier than Rocky, maybe 20 lbs max

I think a Frazier-Marciano fight would have potential to be one greatest brawls/slugfests ever

walshb

Let’s say Tyson can’t stop or KO Rocky.. then I’d go Rocky points over 12. He will outwork Tyson. Changed choice here. But it would be very close. Tyson isn’t losing any way clearly on points.

Tyson early career and prime could put in a helluva shift as regards output. Can't get punch stats, but I reckon when busy, he was averaging 40-50 punches per rd

The Douglas loss says Tyson threw 214 total shots…..can't be right, that…that is about 20 punches per rd. I would have guessed it was closer to 400 total; albeit it clearly wasn't Tyson's best performance

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122868641#Comment_122868641

I agree with Rocky and Frazier. Frazier was more a straight up brawler, without the nuances of Rocky. Rocky would take him. We seen how badly Frazier struggled with Foreman, didn't have a plan b, whereas Rockys whole style was built on overcoming that size difference. Rocky could change it up, and if he fought someone closer to his size like Frazier, you won't take him in a straight up brawl. His deceiving change pace when he attacks for the body, would completely take Frazier off gaurd. He'd leave him in a bad way imo.

But even when fighters know Rocky is going to do that, they still had to go for him, as he leaves himself open. Wants you to punch him. Like leaving low percentage tempters in snooker, where the other guy will probably miss but still has to take it on, and you come in an clear up. Rocky opened up to force you into that position, to hit him, with devasting consequeces when he got on the inside to the ribs.

I think Tyson would beat Marciano on points though, would throw far more and land far more. Rocky would have to KO him. Rocky wouldn't need to hit Tyson as much as Tyson would have to hit him though, for a KO, Rockys body shots cause far more damage. It really is a case of whether Rocky can stand up to the early Tyson onslaught. If he does, still probably too far behind in points. But when Tyson slows and Rocky starts to get to his body as the fight wears on, Tyson starts to take crunching shots to the ribs.

What do you think when people say Marciano was only 180 pounds and would be too small today? I think its nonsense. Put him in a ring with Fury today, there's nothing Fury has in his locker to hurt him imo. And when he gets on the inside, cuts Fury down and breaks his ribs. Same goes for Wilder, Joshua and the rest imo!

walshb

I think Fury at 265 lbs and 9 inches taller would be too much for Rocky

megadodge

There are weight divisions in boxing for a reason.

There always were. It's not just a recent concept.

The men Rocky fought (as I've already pointed out) were NOT bigger than him. They were pretty much the same size. And now you think he'd have no problem with a man 11 inches taller and at least 5.5 stone heavier than him, who has far faster hands and feet than him.

And I believe Rocky had the shortest reach of any heavyweight champion - 68 inches, while Fury has a reach of 85 inches. But far more importantly, he knows how to use that advantage. How exactly is Rocky going to get inside?

Re-read the first line of this post.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122872188#Comment_122872188

I do realize how boxing is structured. I think anyone who follows the sport half casually does.

The weight difference would not make a blind bit of difference with Marciano Fury

megadodge

You never answered my question 'how exactly is Rocky going to get inside'?

As for your second sentence, making comments you can't back up doesn't strengthen your argument. Quite the opposite in fact.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122876609#Comment_122876609

For one, he walks Fury down, he's a soft puncher relatively. Marciano would take those jabs all day without flinching, not even defending, and literally walk into the inside. Fury has literally nothing in his locker that would even come close to fazing Marciano.

And as he brushes off a few dummy hits, changes pace to the inside in devastating fashion. Ribs literally get broken in this fight. Fury far too soft for him

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122876455#Comment_122876455

it’s not just weight. It’s height, width, length, reach.. its overall size. We’re talking 80 lbs weight across a far bigger man

squinn2912

I think Rocky would have a much better chance against Fury than Tyson. The change in speed and levels would be effective but I always thought Rocky was pretty plodding, hands too low and quite hittable even if he was very durable. From what I know the best wins were against older, finished fighters or guys too small for HW. Joe W was a decent boxer but not all that very crude and done. I actually think Joe Louis in his prime takes Rocky. I think Tyson wins by ko inside the first half of the fight. Speed and aggression just too much for Rocky

Morrison J

Marciano v Beterbiev is a fairer debate but I'd still favour Beterbiev personally.

Fury, Tyson etc wipe the floor with Marciano. It's not even close.

megadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122876735#Comment_122876735

Boy, I sure hope you're not a coach.

Youngster: How do I get close to my WAAAAAYYYY bigger opponent?

The Golden Miller: Keep blocking his punches with your face. Don't bother defending cos they won't hurt you.

Youngster: What happens when after taking these punches I can't actually get near him because my slow feet are nowhere near quick enough to get near him with his very quick feet?

The Golden Miller: I haven't thought about that, but don't worry, he has nothing to faze you.

Youngster: Aaahh, ok. I think I need a new coach.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122879450#Comment_122879450

I never said Id encourage that style did I, it's just simply what Marciano done. His whole career. I was asked how Marciano would get on the inside, and simply explained what he did. Pretty much the only fighter ever to play a percentage game, in allowing himself to be hit a certain amount, to open up the opponent.

And Marciano would get on the inside. You obviously don't comprehend what he did. Most pressure fighters Fury could keep on the outside with his jab and reach, they aren't gearing up to take that hit, when the minute its thrown, lunge for the inside. Marciano is waiting for that to be thrown, and before it even connects, has gone for the inside. And even if Fury can keep him out for a while, Marciano will repeatedly do it, and he will get in at some point.

Fury is actually very soft, like Wilder and Joshua, Marciao getting in even a few times and landing crunching shots to Furys ribs, it won't be long until we see Fury keel over. If Marciano gets in even once, Fury really feels it. And after being hurt in the body, becomes harder to keep that jab and distance, and even stand up straight.

Fury has ever only fought bums, in the worst era of HW boxing I've ever seen, and lost to Usyk. His speed and foot movement is good, for a man of his size. That's relative, simply good for being of that frame. Doesn't mean its all that good compared to a smaller man. His speed and foot movement is overstated in that regard, and his power non existent. Just being taller and heavier won't save him here imo. And as I said, Marciano was the equivalent of someone far heavier than 180 pounds

The Golden Miller

He did look plodding, but his change of speed to the inside was deceiving, and caught people out their whole career, even when they knew what was coming. His punching power very deceiving too. He always had issues bulking up, which is why he was seen as so conditioned for his size, he was the equivalent of someone much heavier.

As for Joe Louis, age doesn't really become a big factor v Marciano. People say if Joe was in his prime, would of won, but on what basis? With age, it's your speed that's greatly affected, well everything, but at Joe's age in that fight, the only thing that had deteriorated really was the speed. But as Marciano fought so open, Joe didn't need speed to open him up like another fighter.

The Joe Louis not in his prime arguement is mute in that sense, he repeatedly could hit Marciano in the head, with little trouble, and his power hadn't gone. If Joe was in his prime when he fought Marciano, what's different? In both cases, he gets in and can hit Marciano clean, repeatedly to the head. If he couldn't beat him when he did fight him, I don't think he beats him even in his "prime".

walshb

I’d still back Rocky via KO vs. prime Louis, same as I’d have backed Tyson to knock out any version of Holmes