Motorists and cyclists not yielding to pedestrians.

vavava voom

In my locality, there are several pelicon crossings (ie, light controlled), even these aren’t immune to road users going through them with a green man for pedestrians.

We also have zebra crossings, ie, flashing amber beacons. Road users MUST stop and yield as soon as the pedestrian sets foot on the road, this is however, rarely the case. I’ve often put this to the test and been blasted out of it by cars or vans who then swerve around me. I’ve even seen times where people are waiting for over a minute at a time to get across at a zebra crossing - a disgraceful indictment!

Going forward can footpaths not be continuous and drivers / cyclists have to apply to cross?

Hopefully this should be a good discussion.

zell12

The prevailing view is that pedestrians are an afterthought, as the motorist is king

vavava voom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122834911#Comment_122834911

This attitude needs to change.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122834911#Comment_122834911

Nonsense, they aren't even an afterthought, more like the forgotten mode of transportation

I saw an estate in the Netherlands I think where at a junction the pavement extends across the roadway (with markings for a crossing). It very much indicates that pedestrians have priority. In addition, all the kerbs at corners are sharp 90 degree turns, forcing drivers to slow down and not speed around a corner

There's this theory that some roads should be car focused and act as main arteries, while in residental and dense urban areas the infrastructure should focus on pedestrians and cyclists.

There's a good YouTube channel called "Not Just bikes" which covers this. He has this idea of streets for pedestrians and roads for cars, and they're fine when you keep them seperate but if you mix them then you get stroads which are just garbage at both

Funnily enough the Netherlands has been practicing this for decades, which is why they have such good pedestrian and cycling infrastructure in some areas

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122836817#Comment_122836817

I saw an estate in the Netherlands I think where at a junction the pavement extends across the roadway (with markings for a crossing).

This sort of thing is going to start coming to Dublin soon from DCC:

https://www.thejournal.ie/continuous-footpaths-dcc-side-roads-traffic-plan-6471485-Aug2024/

https://x.com/DubCityCouncil/status/1828021874812412067

There is already some of it on the new Clontarf to City Cycle lane, though that is an early design.

vavava voom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839312#Comment_122839312

This will take a long time to sink in. Some people seem to think it’s illegal to “de-prioritise” cars.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839379#Comment_122839379

Well you have to start somewhere.

mikeybhoy

I drive for a living and the light sequence for some junctions is an absolute joke in the city centre and a complete accident waiting to happen.

At some junctions there's a green light for going straight onbut no arrow for traffic turning right. So traffic wishing to turn right has to go out into the centre of the box junction to yield to the traffic in the opposite direction often this takes until the light changes to red.

All well and good but then the pedestrian lights change to green and this where the problem lies. If a driver is unaware of this then they could easily knock down a pedestrian. Surely it would be safer for the lights for the traffic travelling straight on to go green before the pedestrian lights change. Or the even more logical solution of putting a green arrow on every junction where turning right is legal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058380575/motorists-and-cyclists-not-yielding-to-pedestrians

How did you put it this to the test?

Did you deliberately step out in front of ongcoming cars or cyclists, without giving them enough time to stop?

I agree that pedestrians have right of way at these crossings and traffic should always stop. No argument there.

But some pedestrians can be very reckless and have a habit of stepping out without even checking for oncoming traffic - usually because they are eyes down glued to their phones and/or wearing headphones.

Just ten minutes ago I was driving back to my house and saw a guy do exactly this - stepped out onto a main road (not even at a pedestrian crossing) without even pausing to look left or right because his eyes were glued to his phone. It's not even anything unusual to see.

magicbastarder

not much point in asking them - they've bveen banned.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840652#Comment_122840652

If a driver is unaware of this then they could easily knock down a pedestrian.

A driver is supposed to be aware of everything around them, at all times. As the person with the potential to cause the most damage, the onus is on them to protect the more vulnerable. Being aware of the lights and the changing sequences is the least I'd expect of them (and myself, behind the wheel). I'd also expect that they would spot any peds crossing the road. Putting the blame for such an incident on the light sequence is merely shifting the blame without any reason, IMO.

And that's before we open the box of worms which is "9 times out of 10, the reason a car turning right can't do so in time to avoid the green man is because of the the amber gamblers and red-light breakers who speed up so they're not caught at the lights"

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122865890#Comment_122865890

Surely we should be doing what we can to make the roads safer and prevent injuries/deaths instead of just blaming people for accidents. Let's get rid of seatbelts and any safety features in cars because drivers should be anticipating?

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122878100#Comment_122878100

There’s no such thing as accidents on the roads.

They’re RTIs.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122878100#Comment_122878100

Good idea, let's start with making sure all drivers are hyper aware of the more vulnerable road users with whom they share the space, so that they don't start saying they could "easily knock down a pedestrian" in situations where it is anything but.

People are at fault in "accidents". Always. It might be one person, it could be a whole consortium of them, but there's always someone at fault, or it wouldn't have happened. If someone completing a turn cannot see someone on foot crossing the road, legally, that they're turning into, then the blame lies 100% at their feet.

This site really needs to bring back down voting.

👎️

The following link for Tracey Solicitors website contains a fairly concise explanation on responsibility for pedestrian accidents, including those at pedestrian crossings, and where it lies.

https://www.traceysolicitors.ie/en/road-traffic-accident/zebra-crossing-accident-claims/

And yes, they are described as accidents. Nobody sets out on the road with the intention of either being in, or causing an accident.

IMO, all users of the road space, including pedestrians, cyclists, motorists, e-scooter users, and anything else you can think of, share responsibility for their own safety and the prevention of accidents - not just motorists.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122882175#Comment_122882175

Who mentioned zebra crossings? Why bring them up? If only we could downvote this post that has nothing to do with the topic……….We're talking about mowing down pedestrians who are crossing at a green light here, in case you can't figure it out.

IMO, all users of the road space, including pedestrians, cyclists, motorists, e-scooter users, and anything else you can think of, share responsibility for their own safety and the prevention of accidents - not just motorists.

They do, but they also share responsibility for others, not just themselves. Some users are more vulnerable than others. There is a greater duty of care on those in the 2 ton metal cage that's travelling at speed to be aware of the potentially life altering/ending injuries they can cause BECAUSE they can cause them.

But we're getting away from the point that was made……which is "If a driver is unaware of this then they could easily knock down a pedestrian". Of course they could, but that doesn't mean it's not the driver's fault. I could easily cause a car crash by blindly running out into the road without warning, it's still my fault though. Crappy light sequences are no excuse for crappy driving.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122878100#Comment_122878100

We are. Finding out the route cause, apportioning blame, penalising those who are in the wrong etc…………all part of blaming someone for accidents and also all part of making the roads safer and preventing accidents. We're talking about pedestrians crossing at the lights (which are showing the green man) and a driver 'easily' ploughing into them because they're not paying attention. There's pretty much SFA a pedestrian can do in such a situation. And that's before we start talking about pedestrians with reduced mobility, mental capacity, agency, responsibility (such as kids)………..there's a reason driving a car needs to be licenced and walking the streets does not.

Not sure what point you're attempting to make with the last sentence.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840652#Comment_122840652

Surely it would be safer for the lights for the traffic travelling straight on to go green before the pedestrian lights change. Or the even more logical solution of putting a green arrow on every junction where turning right is legal.

Or how about you pay attention to the road like you're supposed to and don't knock anyone down because you were delayed turning right, like the professional you claim to be? If a driver is unaware that someone has started crossing the road they're about to turn into, they're at fault. Not the pedestrian, not the car, not the light sequence…..the driver is responsible and nobody else.

@Yeah_Right

@Yeah_Right

Who mentioned zebra crossings? Why bring them up? If only we could downvote this post that has nothing to do with the topic……….We're talking about mowing down pedestrians who are crossing at a green light here, in case you can't figure it out.

The OP did, in their original post. I suggest you re-read it, it might help you gain a better understanding of the topic of the thread, but in case you don't, here is a screen snip..

magicbastarder

FWIW, one of the reasons there are not more zebra crossings in dublin (as of maybe ten years ago) was that ambiguity in the law; that a pedestrian must already be on it to gain priority. it's no different in practice than not having a zebra crossing.

i had emailed a local councillor asking about the provision of zebra crossings, and he'd put the question to the city manager or roads department, and the above reason was given.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122882175#Comment_122882175

Waiting until the cars have stopped before stepping onto the crossing is the safest way to use a crossing

But you do not have priority until you step onto the crossing so this line doesn't make any sense.

Point 1 and point 4 directly contradict each other.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886559#Comment_122886559

Up until recently, there were a total of 3 official zebra crosings under the control of DCC on public roads. Obviously there were some on private land etc.

The other main reason for lack of zebra crossings was the requirement for that 4 beacons were required to be installed, which drove up the cost substantially. Made it the case that it cost almost as much as just installing a standard pedestrian crossing to begin with.

Thankfully, the new laws being implemented for zebra crossings is beginning to change that.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886545#Comment_122886545

You might want to check your reading comprehension. This conversation has nothing to do with me.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886670#Comment_122886670

Because the driver would have to stop when there are no people there.
I've seen a lot of traffic lights that change a few seconds after the button is pressed, mainly in smaller towns though. Definitely not in Dublin city centre and the like.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886678#Comment_122886678

How do we force motorists to stop? Because they're certainly not doing it at present.

Maybe we should have all pedestrian lights defaulting to red for traffic and green for pedestrians, and let motorists press a little button to get permission to pass though?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886743#Comment_122886743

Presumably you don't notice incidents like this happening routinely, in your 000s of kms of driving per month?

https://streamable.com/o5uvsp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886729#Comment_122886729

Fines apply to cyclists do. But perhaps we can get back to the question - how do we get motorists to stop at red lights? Clearly, the current regime of fines and points isn't anything near effective.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839379#Comment_122839379

We already have one in Limerick and it does work. The difference in driver behaviour to before or to the other junctions on the same road is astonishing.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886796#Comment_122886796

Surely you wouldn't be trying to change the subject away from your strange claim that "From my observation that vast majority of motorists who run red lights will do so for the first couple of seconds of the red sequence"?

The Luas red light camera disagrees with your 'most RLJ is by cyclists' claim. 88% of red light jumping at that camera was by motorists.

http://kerrycyclingcampaign.org/tag/red-lights/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886615#Comment_122886615

That is clearly meant as advice, from the solicitor's website.

I didn't personally write it.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886743#Comment_122886743

I suppose the big difference between a cyclist and a car breaking a red light is one of those things is known for killing up to almost 200 people a year on our roads, the other is not.

Not forgiving cyclists for doing that mind you, I cycle 20km a day myself and it grinds my gears when I see cyclists fly passed me at red lights, weaving through pedestrians. I am yet to hear of anyone killed by it though.

As an aside, the one cohort of road users I probably have the biggest problem with day in day out and consider to be a huge danger on the roads are taxi drivers.

They pull in wherever they like, rules be damned. 'Cycle lane? who gives a ****'

They do U turns wherever they like, rules be damned.

They'll speed passed you in the bus lane at a hair's breath, because you know, god forbid they sit behind a cyclist for any length of road.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122886717#Comment_122886717

I don't think that idea will work.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122887523#Comment_122887523

Seems you have your mind made up. No point in me engaging with you.