Werewolf post game(s) feedback thread

Necro

Personally, I think the Day 1 amnesty should be a formal rule for any newcomers. We are not going to grow the community back to the level it previously was without allowing new players (or even those who return after extended absences) time and space to get to grips with how the game ebbs and flows, and learn the lingo, the rules etc.

I know it's a game that we all play to win but without an influx of new players and them being welcomed and encouraged to participate, there will not be any games eventually. A game is never won on Day 1 in any case and if you have serious suspicions of a new player, it can wait until Day 2 imo anyways.

Extra game mods would be amazing too, and if someone has an idea for a game but is scared about the task at hand in running it, myself (or Trigs I imagine though I don't want to speak for him) are normally here to assist anyways so don't be afraid to contact me. I'm quite happy to help with anything that you might not be sure about in terms of game modding.

On the game - Ecto don't sweat the mistakes. I make them all the time still and that's after modding a ridiculous amount of games. I thought everything was on point about this, and I am also aware that you had an unexpected emergency to deal with just after game launch so to keep the show on track was incredible given the circumstances.

This game sort of brought it back to me how important new players are to the forum here, because it was wonderful to see all 4 get so involved and invested and I thought they all handled themselves excellently, even having to put up with myself and @lorcand1990 as main motormouths for the entire game - so the pace of the thread was fairly fast throughout.

lorcand1990

Agree on D1 amnesty for newbies.. we need to welcome in new players, its a tough game and if we start yelling and screaming at them straight away they might not play again.

Question them or whatever but do it nicely d1. No lynching or munching new players day/night 1 would be my unwritten rule

I hate a quiet thread so yeah myself and necro kept it busy! Jayo too

Leg End Reject

I thought it was great Ecto, especially how you handled being busy elsewhere unexpectedly.

There was enough flavour in the wolf descriptions to keep us guessing too and it's amazing how one real apprentice role gave the wolves an opportunity to be believed once they faked another.

The new players were brilliant, I'd suggest a back room for newbie nrvs to ask game questions about terms they aren't familiar with, and to give them somewhere to stress off thread. Not to guide them on how to play, just to help them get to grips with the terms and vent. These shouldn't be opened up afterwards as they're not role related. It's can be very stressful at times as an experienced player and this might help newbies find their WW feet and stick around. Agree with not putting them under pressure on D1 and not being able to lynch or munch them too.

I'd recommend all the new players play the next game or help with the modding if they can't play. Anyone interested in playing their first game might benefit from observing one or two play out from the deadroom too.

I'm not sure I could handle the stress of modding, I wouldn't be able to get online at the required times for a lot of the year and punctuality isn't my strong point, so a 10 am post might only be done at noon. 😂

Katie WW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564044#Comment_123564044

Great game Ecto, having modded before I don't know how anyone does it solo. I agree with the need for new mods and I am sure f someone wanted to learn the ropes and experienced mod would let them shadow.

I am another one who agrees with the Day 1 amnesty for new players. I think LER's pint about a back room for newbies is a good one. It may be alot on the mod to look after that but if an experienced player wasn't playing the game they could probably help out there.

kitten_k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564098#Comment_123564098

Sorry that's me, thought I had signed out 😀

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564098#Comment_123564098

Good shout on someone who's not playing explaining terms to newbies. It's hard enough to not lose the head when you understand the terms and are aware of breadcrumbing, possible tasks etc.

The beauty of this forum is that it is good-natured and supportive, no one drags a disagreement from elsewhere into here. That's a real strength that should be utilised, and it's unique on Boards too.

lorcand1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564175#Comment_123564175

Shut up leggy, you tunnelled me 2 years ago

🤣

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564190#Comment_123564190

You didn't know how lucky you were then, I'm stalking you now. 😂

That was an anon game so I wouldn't have know you were a newbie. I was too, I had started to play one small vanilla game on FoG and was munched first, so that Simpson's game was so fecking confusing.

lorcand1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564237#Comment_123564237

You were actually really helpful to me in my first game, it was indeed simpsons, off site

Anyway.. back to feedback!

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564175#Comment_123564175

Very good idea.

Just saying to someone else that it's hard to ask in a game because a) people think you might be talking strategy and b) you are not sure who you can trust .

In the last bit before I was killed I thought I was taking advice from a wolf and didn't know what to do for the best !

I realized after of course that my wolf was an experienced villager who could offer more in terms of that final strategy to the game where I would have been a dead weight .

Thanks everyone for a really good game and I hope ye will forgive the paranoia and ' tunnelling' ( a term I learned last night ) that I did on anyone that questioned me !

@Ectoplasm you are a star in my eyes !🌟

What a load of work for you . Just saw the backrooms there last night as hadn't registered on Discord earlier in the week . Thanks for sorting every for me earlier thought I was going to have to drop out and glad now I didn't . I thought U was clear for the week but just shows you never know .

Thank you all again.

I will play again but will make sure I clear my calendar for a good few days .

Edit mistake. That shook me a bit not being able to edit which with all my typos am heavily reliant on 😂

lorcand1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564532#Comment_123564532

What you were specifically doing actually has a term too. It's called OMGUS (Oh my god, you suck), basically thinking anyone accusing you is a wolf. More often than not it is a villager questioning you, just trying to figure things out

You'll have to play again cause Leggy will tag you to make sure you see the new games, Leggy is sound like that 😀

Again, really well played to you and all the newbies. Looking forward to more fun with ye. I hope our newbie pass will attract a few more players!

And just to make this feeback related, @Ectoplasm your flavour was absolutely outstanding, ton of work went into that & the specific roles

Goldengirl

Yes the challenges were gas too ! I hadn't done MacBeth so Google was my friend .

Loved all the poetry and characterisation 👏👏

Vestiapx

I think the amnesty is a good idea but should be a failed lynch mechanic of varying despicableness so for example you cold have a mechanic in play that all voters for a newb instead receive the vote themselves all the way up to instead of the newb one of the voters is randed and lynched

this could be part of the game rules in the op

newb players would effectivly have a prize straight away be they wolf or nrv, 3p or rv

makes newb wolves very awesome and they would feel it and gives newb villagers something to play around with

and then let people fake claim newb if they want but keep it werewolf

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564532#Comment_123564532

Eh, just on this you weren't a dead weight. You were just unlucky that Vernon's claim made you most likely suspect. We wrong in thinking you were wolf.

It's really hard not to take it personally in Werewolf if a few people or even a lot of people are doubting you. After a while you'll develop a slightly thicker skin but I don't think it goes away because when you're that deep in the game you're super invested.

Also remember what I said about never being nice to Leggy in game.

OscarMIlde

I like the idea of newbie backroom. I was lucky enough to be a wolf first game so had that benefit.

We could call the backroom werewolf 101.

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564949#Comment_123564949

Necro was my newbie

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123564863#Comment_123564863

Would thank this but won:t be a newbie anymore 😂 like the prize though .

Ae you still considered a newbie on your next game if you're a first time wolf ?

Wolfie toothy smile emoji .

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123565535#Comment_123565535

Indeed I was! That was such a fun game too with all the anon accounts having professions which you could use thematically(which I cloned for anon games on the FOG site actually).

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123566143#Comment_123566143

Andy did the names

Leg End Reject

The Mario game was headwrecking in a good way, not knowing what the orb of dominance controlled was tough.

The biggest help to the village was the wolf priest dying early, the wolves had a real chance to dominate the narrative before autopriest kicked in.

@Kolido played a brilliant game as Mario, those 2 wolf kills sealed the win for the village.

Great game @Trigger, and a lot of work went into both devising and running it.

lorcand1990

I wouldn't wish a dual account on anyone, but everyone should be made do it once! Kinda like the junior cert

Had a bit of a laugh with it which was all I could do really

Its good to have aspects of a game that keeps you guessing and village aren't really sure what's going on, like the orb.. 'takes note'

Leg End Reject

Here's a post I didn't think I'd be writing about the recent LoTR games as I was on the "winning" wolf team, but here goes. @kitten_k and @Rikand

I kinda guessed something was off when I got to the deadroom after end game as no one was really posting, then I read all the back rooms … It's blatantly obvious that there was major mod interference throughout the game to prolong it. I probably should have noted it all down but here goes:

Betty/Gru's wolf power was to find the ring bearer, I presume he was to be given a list? The list was given to the other 3 wolves AFTER Gru was lynched on D1. The list had nine players and included all 4 hobbits. That's why Maeve was picked N1 as she wouldn't have been protected. @Gru @Trigger @lorcand1990 @StrawbsM @Shane.C The 3 alert levels were obviously intended to reduce the number of names on the list, we were told we would get shorter lists so this fits. Yet, at end game Strawbs was killed as the last hobbit while the OP suggests she should have converted and become a wolf?

When Rhoda returned as Gandalf the White she should still have had her seer ability. It makes zero sense to send them back as NRV. @tea and coffee

When Edward character revealed the wolves were given the choice of who died, obviously Magda/Trigs was picked because they were a known hobbit. I'm assuming that originally the player who revealed was to be killed or it was to be randed?

Then the hobbits couldn't give any real information on thread, RVs need to be able to confirm themselves, it's fundamental to the role. At least one had to be alive at end game for the village to win too so they were super RVs for the village. I made a wolf play to confirm Ben was the last hobbit, I wolf spewed nonsense on the thread and Strawbs couldn't give correct information and looked wolfy as a result. That is inherently unfair, the POE lists from the other hobbits would have swung it for her if she could confirm details. I was a cert for lynch, so the plan was to get Ben to confirm and I get lynched. Unfortunately, Rikand got randed because Pippin had 2 lives so I had to continue the nonsense into the next day. I'm really sorry @StrawbsM, you were in an impossible situation and I didn't understand why you were so passive. 😌

There's no winners when the game is rigged and there was major mod interference throughout. 🤷‍♀️

@tusk

@Ectoplasm and @Electric Nitwit, I know you were helping and doing what was asked of you but I'm including you both for transparency.

Leg End Reject

I forgot the win conditions.

The Wolves win when their numbers equal or exceed the number of Villagers, successfully corrupting or overwhelming the Free Peoples of Middle Earth.

Those conditions weren't met?

Ectoplasm

Yes, we made mistakes. We were forced to 'interfere' because we made mistakes. For that I sincerely apologise.

We are human and (relatively) inexperienced mods. Any 'interference' was done in good faith to try and keep the game fair for both sides. No malicious intent. No desire to 'prolong' the game. We were simply doing our best. That best was clearly not good enough but that's what it was.

I'd have been happy to answer any questions about the game and absolutely admit there were errors but putting out a narrative that we acted to prolong the game artificially is just not true. I'm also not sure why we would do it either.

We talk a lot about building a community and enticing new players but what about mods? Who is going to try modding when their game gets described as 'nonsense' and 'rigged'. I know I won't again. Lesson absolutely learned.

Leg End Reject

I'm going by Tusk's post in the deadroom about being worried the game would end early, it likely would have if things weren't changed.

No one would have an issue with mistakes being made if we knew it at the time. This is the thread for feedback on games so posting here is a chance to answer questions.

I only worked this out reading the backrooms, there was no acknowledgement that there had been issues.

The cornerstone of all WW games is integrity, how would you have felt if you discovered players were arranging things privately and the game collapsed?

I got to the deadroom and was wondering wtf was wrong. My reference to nonsense is below, it was not in relation to mods at all.

I made a wolf play to confirm Ben was the last hobbit, I wolf spewed nonsense on the thread and Strawbs couldn't give correct information and looked wolfy as a result.

Changing the roles as I've outlined above is rigging the game.I don't think this is on you, Ecto, I've played a game you ran before, and I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Maybe look at it from the player's point of view, we played in good faith and didn't know that things were being changed. The reality here is the wolves didn't win on their own merit and the village didn't really have a chance. This kind of thing will stop people signing up to play, that unfortunately will solve the new mod problem at the expense of the forum.

Ectoplasm

As far as I know EN is going to address your points individually. Not everything you said is accurate - some of that is down to interpretation. Hopefully that will address any questions.

As I said, I accept mistakes were made and apologise for them but positing that that was due to a lack of integrity is unfair imo.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123919284#Comment_123919284

Integrity of the game, not the mods. If things had to be changed during the game a simple mod note would have sufficed and affected players brought up to speed.

I just tagged you and Nitters as you helped with the running of the game, it's really Tusk who should be replying.

Electric Nitwit

Hey @Leg End Reject

Ironically, I accept a good number of your points but I think you're conclusion is a mirror of what really happened. I actually really wanted to interfere, but didn't 🤣

Overall, the truth is we should probably have postponed but didn't want to do that twice. We has a call to discuss the game and changed a good few points, but the editing of the OP and PMs was done a bit quickly and left a couple of grey areas. Then tusk had RL **** mean he couldn't give it as much time as I know he wanted to, so Ecto and I did have to make a few decisions on the fly. I'll say again, as I did in the backroom, every decision was made in good faith. I don't think there was bias, though we had discussed the game being village stacked so unconsciously, maybe? Not sure

One point you missed was that Rikand's late arrival. He entered via discord and unfortunately wasn't on the original list. We had extra roles for extra players, and Lurtz was to be added for 16 players, but it meant his role wasn't randed. Not a perfect start.

Gru's power, the sensing of the ring, was the first miscommunication. It was an important narrative and was extended to all wolves. Checking now this was explained to the hobbits but not the wolves, Gru's PM still says him. That's how it was originally envisaged and wasn't updated.

Ring corruption/death etc. God damn that one word, "corrupted" in the OP. Bad wording. There was never any conversion planned. The plan was a la the films, where Frodo is "found" and stabbed while wearing the ring. Where it went wrong is that the warning was to come in the posts about ring wearing. It did with the first one but the second warning never came because Straws decided to wear it twice in succession, making the second decision before the first was written up. Never thought of that, I mean there's no way she'll be up for lynch and munch... right?? 🙈

Gandalf the White, well, this is a farce... I missed tusk's comment that you quoted. Our notes said he didn't get an extra peek. I now realise that the initial discussion was that he'd come back with two peeks. That was reduced to one, as normal, but I read extra peek wrong. And you'll have seen in Gandalf's backroom I thought it made perfect sense to be NRV but lock village, beacon of hope and all. I mean, resurrection and lock village are two massive advantages.

Edward, Magda - high level, the role reveal ban was needed with everyone having a role and the hobbits having a backroom, I stand by that. The issue is that there is a massive grey area in that rule that we didn't have bottomed out. Edward's initial soft claim (Blooming subtle as it was) probably crossed the line but I honestly wasn't sure, and it seemed pretty obvious he was going to die anyway so I didn't get involved. Then, somehow, he survived! The next day it was pushed a bit further but seemed too late to warn Kol (and Kol, I don't blame you here at all, it was me), so I put a warning on thread to try to prevent more reveals following. The issue there is that I then realised my intervention cleared him, and I'm really disappointed in myself for that. So we felt that Kol didn't deserve a modkill, but that we'd allowed the village an unfair advantage through not intervening earlier, then interning in a very clumsy way. The extra kill was to try to unwind that advantage. It's a bit of a **** show, I'll concede.

Strawbs non reveal. Earlier in the game, Trigs wanted to reveal the backroom and we did intervene, saying not to. Again, I think that was right but the general rule was too grey. By the time Strawbs had her back to the wall I think she was much, much too strict with herself, and could have revealed more, her lucky power etc. I really, really wanted to tell her that as I agree it was unfair the way she was hamstrung but (ironically given your complaint) we didn't want to intervene

Win conditions. This one I'm going to blame you lot! "This sacred duty falls uniquely to the Hobbits among you, a burden few can comprehend. Should the line of Ring-bearers be extinguished, the quest to destroy the One Ring fails, and with it, all hope for Middle-earth." Obviously I can't read it objectively but I thought that was clear. I was absolutely raging that it wasn't (including with you wolves when you didn't munch Ben to win!). It was mentioned on thread a lot, but it never really locked in sadly, so I guess it wasn't worded well enough. Again, I really wanted to clarify it, as it was arguably the point of the game, but we didn't feel we could intervene.

That's what I meant by your conclusion being a mirror. It's ironic to me because I really wanted to explain the Hobbit's importance, explain to Strawbs she could do more etc but we didn't want to intervene.

"The reality here is the wolves didn't win on their own merit and the village didn't really have a chance"

I'm sorry, but that's revisionist and objectively wrong. The village had your neck on the block Wednesday and Thursday. Now I credited you with great play, and it was, but it was some pretty shocking village play too. Village could and should have won, with or without the Edward/Magda controversy, which is the only influence we had that significantly tipped the scales.

So yeah, a good few miscommunications. But you're assigning motive to them which just isn't true.

Bloody hell, that was a long post 🙈

Leg End Reject

Thanks Nitters.

Rikand

Leggy, we won through exceptional wolf play. Don't go thinking that it was anything else 😁