Dublin and the Regional Airports

Setting up the new thread to continue the discussion that was on the Dublin Runway Infrastructure thread.

Hotblack Desiato

markodalyOct 15, 2024

John Moran mentioned it, but I've heard similar figures in the past so I would believe him.

Fact-check it if you want and come back if its wrong.

True about DAA, so given that DAA also owns Cork Airport, how much investment has it given it, in comparison to Dublin Airport, and does it match on a per capita basis?*

Dublin new runway €320 Million

Dublin Terminal 2 €745 Million

So well over a €1 Billion

What did Cork Airport get over the last 15 years?
€40 million for upgrades, repairs and resurfacing of the runway, and €10 million of that came from the government.

I might be missing some big other investment to Cork Airport but yea, not exactly much going on there at the moment in terms of big upgrades.

*The point was about government spending more generally, but the likes of the DAA follow the herd here aswell.

Asking others to fact-check YOUR figures is bottom of the barrel stuff.

John Moran is a politician making a self-serving argument so forgive me for not taking his word as gospel.

What upgrades does Cork need? Saying Dublin got X is not an argument. What elements of Cork airport are at or near capacity or projected to reach capacity?

Hotblack Desiato

markodalyOct 15, 2024

The motorway network is one of the best outcomes from the Celtic Tiger years. However, it was left unfinished as the main routes to Dublin from the other cities were prioritised first, over intra-regional connectivity.

The arse feel out of the economy and many of the remaining routes were canned, like the M20.

We are now trying to play catch up.

The point is though that connectivity to Dublin is better for Limerick, Cork and Waterford, than these cities are for each other, even though they are geographically closer.

The point was raised correctly by John Moran, as to why the state has to subsidise flights from Donegal to Dublin and also why there are big efforts to bring cancer patients to Dublin by plane.

Why is that need there in the first place? Because the road network to the North East is dire, and there are no regional health centres near Donegal that can cater for these people.

These people are not flying to Dublin for the laugh of it, they do it because they have to.

This is because of decades of underfunding of infrastructure in the state generally but also the underfunding of correct infrastructure regionally to try and address the growth imbalance of the state.

I'll repeat it again and again, the current situation did not just happen, it was caused by poor planning, policy decisions and an overt laissez-faire style to more sustainable national development.

Pretty much everyone agrees the M20 should have been built years ago

The reason transport to/from Donegal is dire is obvious from looking at the map. The direct route to almost anywhere from almost anywhere goes through NI. The natural place to have a centre providing health services for most of Donegal is Derry. For sectarian reasons Derry has never developed in the way it should (e.g. proper university) and the border severed Donegal's rail connections. It was out of the question until quite recently for RoI to fund road projects in NI and despite all the talk that still hasn't happened. Unionists don't want it to happen. Donegal Co Co is its own worst enemy though as it has allowed the worst settlement patterns in the country, one-off housing everywhere and no real population centres.

It SHOULD get the bulk of the funding.

Again, DUB does not get funding - it funds itself.

IngazZagni

Dublin is spending much more on infrastructure because it is expanding fast. New runway, new taxiways, new aprons and terminal expansions all to cater for the huge demand. The taxpayer does not pay for this as it's commercially viable.

So the key question to those that only want the regional airports to expand is this. How much yearly taxpayer subsidies are acceptable for the Irish people? 50 million? 200 million? Is this a good use of taxpayer money when we can instead increase connectivity to this island with little to no taxpayer subsidies?

How else would you expand those regional airports without huge taxpayer supports?

lisasimpson

I think the one area Cork airport needs work on is arrivals the passport control area is tight enough if a couple of flights arrive at the same time.

More parking needed too as the last 2 summers at peak holiday season it's tight enough. I know some of the companies in the business park will let their employees leave their cars in the work carpark which helps.

To help with the above need to work with local transport providers in relation to better public transport links from within the county at a min.

dublin12367

Outside of Ireland, it’s become a joke,” Mr Walsh said. “I speak to international airlines who want to serve the Irish market, they want to serve it through Dublin. They’re not going to fly to Shannon and Cork – they’re absolutely crystal clear about that.”

Directly from Willie Walsh this afternoon but sure what would he or the airlines know!

Kermit.de.frog

He's calling out the bullshit from people who have no clue what they are talking about.

https://m.independent.ie/business/dublin-airport-passenger-cap-now-a-joke-among-airlines-says-willie-walsh/a1424345410.html

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724843#Comment_122724843

Asking others to fact-check YOUR figures is bottom of the barrel stuff.

If the figures are wrong go ahead and find the real figures.

I went back and double-checked what John Moran said. Its about 26 minutes the last Upfront episode.

Dublin per capita over the next 5 years is going to get €19,000 per person.

Cork per capita over the next 5 years is getting €9,500 per person

Limerick per capita over the next 5 years is getting €9,000 per person

I presume that he, given he has an extensive background in Finance, ran the rule over the existing National Development plan and came up with these numbers.

Even so, folks from Dublin will say, "So what?"

As to John Moran, yes he is a 'Politician' but he has a pretty extensive background in Business and Finance and generally comes across as informed and competent. He is not a Healy-Rae is what I am saying, he is more a technocrat, which is no bad thing in this country.

I mentioned the runway for Cork already, that would be one thing. Incentives would be another, that would make it a better proposition than Dublin. Even good ol' Michael O'Leary states this about Cork airport.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727035#Comment_122727035

You're conflating different sets of figures here; I suspect entirely deliberately.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724859#Comment_122724859

The direct route to almost anywhere from almost anywhere goes through NI.

Finally good news on that front.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yj4n5y178o

The total cost of the road upgrade will be about £1.2bn, with €600m (£500m) coming from the Irish government.

Infrastructure Minister John O'Dowd said that work on the project would begin in early 2025 and would completed on a phased basis.

Donegal Co Co is its own worst enemy though as it has allowed the worst settlement patterns in the country, one-off housing everywhere and no real population centres.

I have argued this point to death with people that one-off housing and the ribbon development so common in many of these counties is a terrible terrible thing, and should be outlawed. Check my posting history on that, if you want.

I am not some Healy-Rae populist spouting off about a mythical Rural Ireland, I have no truck with that type of rural vs urban Irish culture war.

BUT, that is not to say, that we just continue along with the lax laissez-faire style of national development either. It is very fair to say that cities and regions like Limerick and Cork, get equal treatment for funding per head as Dublin. That is not and should not be a controversial thing to say, especially for anyone interested in reducing the inequities and inbalances we have in this state.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122724859#Comment_122724859

Again, DUB does not get funding - it funds itself.

Oh ok. This Uber-Libertarian talk again.

So, the DAA is going to fund the €15 Billion metro that is going to link it to Dublin city centre? They built the M1, did they?
Not forgetting that DAA is a semi-state, where the taxpayers are the ultimate shareholders, and who funded Dublin Airport from its inception in 1940 up to the early 2000's when assets were transferred over to the newly created DAA.

Yea, all 'self-made', alright, without a dime from the taxpayer….

Idbatterim

I'm assuming the high dublin spend, good chunk of it is metrolink. Well, when politicians decide to redesign the wheel every few years, that's what you get, billions extra, thrown onto the price tag...

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727090#Comment_122727090

More deliberate conflation to try desperately prove a point. Metrolink is a service between Swords and the city. It is not an airport link

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727139#Comment_122727139

Exactly-Dublin funds all its airport developments. One of the latest being the North runway. Completely funded by DAA

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727139#Comment_122727139

Putting in place a rail link to the airport is the primary reason for the metro project, not connecting Swords and just adding the Airport for the laugh.

But the point stands, government/taxpayers has invested huge amounts to make Dublin airport a sucess. Good luck to them. I agree with that investment by the way, but let's not pretend its all 'self-made' now.

Now, if Limerick and Cork got similar investments on a per capita basis..

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727041#Comment_122727041

Go on.

Did you check what he said?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728127#Comment_122728127

No, it isn't the primary reason for the project.

You are making stuff up, using and abusing numbers you found along the way, and when required, just outright lying to try make your discredited point. You are showing effectively zero knowledge of some of the topics you've tried to bend in (thinking that Donegal Airport serves Letterkenny for instance).

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122725241#Comment_122725241

What these regions want is equal treatment in terms of government-funded infrastructure.

Bus, rail links, expanded terminals and runways.

I mentioned in another thread that currently 87% of all passengers fly out of Dublin Airport and that is growing all the time.

We will come to the point that >95%, or even >99% of passengers in Ireland will be using Dublin Aiport.. do people really think that is a good thing for the nation or national development?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728127#Comment_122728127

Is the metro built yet? I remember it was being talked about 10-15 years ago!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728150#Comment_122728150

Thats your opinion. But Cork is growing aswell? Its share is increasing all the time. Shannon is growing aswell albeit at a small rate. They will take some of the 87%.

I dont get how you and others cant understand that Dublin is where the demand and money is. So its going to take majority of pax. Its the main gateway. Read up on what Willie walsh said yesterday also.

The Govt allocate millions to Shannon and Cork for infrastructure development etc. They should be well able to grow aswell.

IngazZagni

Dublin's infrastructure is vastly underdeveloped when compared to other cities of similar scale. It is now one of the most congested cities in the world because of this. So it's only right that we play catch up and invest in the city. The new metro will link both Luas lines, the Dart and create a new interchange with the Maynooth/Sligo and docklands line which will transform transport in the city. It will connect one of the fastest growing urban centers on the island in Swords, other huge urban centers like Ballymun which have poor connections currently and the airport is the cherry on top.

Dublin taxpayers along with Cork taxpayers subsidise every other County in this Country.

Shannon and to a lesser extent Cork simply doesn't have the population density and economies of scale to grow at the same rate as Dublin without massive taxpayer subsidies which would have to be paid directly to the airlines and/or airports. I'm still yet to see people acknowledge this fact and for them to support these huge taxpayer corporate subsidies.

afatbollix

Oh politics.

It's always Us v Dublin.

All the money goes to Dublin/London/Brussels.

But you know what, Thats where the money is and where most people live in this country.

Metro is so much more than just serving the airport, Swords is a great example of no rail transport, Ballymun and then also lifting the numbers on the current green line.

But its all Dublin airport's fault and we should build a railway to Shannon, Cork and Knock first before Dublin even thinks of getting a metro, Sure it has a Dart and a Luas! Greedy feckers!

Stop thinking us v them and an overall picture. Vast investment in transport needs to be made all over the country but Dublin needs its fair share too.
*I live in the west of Ireland

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728135#Comment_122728135

No, it isn't the primary reason for the project.

Right, so if the Airport was say, in West Dublin, the current route would be chosen as a priority?

(thinking that Donegal Airport serves Letterkenny for instance)

Eh, I never mentioned Letterkenny. You are making up stuff now. As to numbers, go fact-check them, if you want.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728737#Comment_122728737

Swords would be a priority to get a rail connection, yes.

You didn't mention Letterkenny by name, but seemed utterly convinced that an A5/N2 upgrade would impact Carrickfinn. It won't; as the population that uses it are not anywhere near it - there is a reason Donegal County Council put huge (failed) efforts in to getting an airport in Letterkenny itself.

If people like you had been in control of funding, they'd probably have got one too; as would every other medium sized town "because them up in Dublin have one!"

This is just a time sink - someone with such an ingrained victim complex as you is never going to be convinced to even just stop lying about things let alone change their mind.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728233#Comment_122728233

But Cork is growing aswell?

It is growing now, after the DAA got its act together in promoting the airport a bit more.

But, its numbers are still not great considering its potential.

People have accused me of making up numbers (without providing their own) but lets look at growth over the long term.

Since the year 2000, Cork Airport has grown its passengers by 66.7% to 2023, while Dublin has grown by 130%

Cork is still down on its 2008 peak by -14% while Dublin is up from that peak by 36%.

As to Cork and Shannon, what millions do the government give these regions?

I keep mentioning the per captia investment that is skewed. It seems people just want to ignore this figure or just not believe it, as they would then admit that yes, Dublin does get more per person than other regions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728797#Comment_122728797

You clearly didn’t see Cork growing before Covid then? You don’t understand airline business either. Dublin is where they want to fly to and that’s where demand is.

The got allocated millions in the budget, regional airports fund etc. Google search would tell you.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728761#Comment_122728761

Swords would be a priority to get a rail connection, yes.

Would it get €15 billion to service the town with a metro link, if Dublin airport was say in Lucan or Baldonel instead of north County Dublin? Not a chance..

You didn't mention Letterkenny by name.

Correct, I did not.

If people like you had been in control of funding, they'd probably have got one too; as would every other medium sized town "because them up in Dublin have one!"

Oh please, why do you have to get personal with quips like, "people like me"?

Read my post above stating some of my positions on things about Dublin where it should get the bulk of the funding and the populism that some in rural Ireland get up to, like those Healy-Raes. The world isnt black and white.

ingrained victim complex 

If all one has is personal attacks, attacking the poster, rather then the post, its more a reflection on yourself.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728814#Comment_122728814

You clearly didn’t see Cork growing before Covid then? You don’t understand airline business either. Dublin is where they want to fly to and that’s where demand is.

As I said before, that is also where the supply is. Folks dont like to have to travel 2-3-4 hours to an airport, if they dont have to.

The got allocated millions in the budget, regional airports fund etc. Google search would tell you.

Yea, they got crumbs. I never said they get nothing, its just comparatively and on a per captia basis its below what it should be getting.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728490#Comment_122728490

I agree that Dublin does lack the infrastructure due to chronic underfunding for decades. I don't contest that.

But is the answer to this is to pump the vast majority of available funding to Dublin, while underfunding the other regional cities? Is that what the basic argument is at the moment?

Cork and Limerick have to wait 10-20 years for Dublin to get up to speed..?

Because if we concede the fact that Dublin has an infrastructure shortfall, do we not also concede that Cork, Limerick and its airports are also in an infrastructure shortfall?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728580#Comment_122728580

But its all Dublin airport's fault and we should build a railway to Shannon, Cork and Knock first before Dublin even thinks of getting a metro, Sure it has a Dart and a Luas! Greedy feckers!

Stop thinking us v them and an overall picture. Vast investment in transport needs to be made all over the country but Dublin needs its fair share too.

You are making an argument that no one has made.

Who stated that we should build those lines before Metro North? I didn't, and I don't see anyone on this thread advocating it.
The Metro SHOULD be built.

That is the thing with a debate, it's much easier to argue against a Healy-Rae-type caricature in your head than what someone is actually saying.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728127#Comment_122728127

that’s utter shite. A rail link to the airport could simply be a spur from the northern line.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729004#Comment_122729004

By comparison with comparably sized cities in other European and indeed non-European jurisdictions, Cork and Limerick have more access to airline services than would conventionally be the case. Exeter is of comparable size with either Cork or Limerick. It has its own small airport and is a comparable distance from Bristol’s larger airport as Cork is from Shannon. Perhaps Cork should be closed and all traffic diverted to Shannon to provide economies of scale? Probably get more flights to one airport than would use two? Maybe that’s your plan?

Van.Bosch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729004#Comment_122729004

by that logic what about Leitrim? Should it get its share of funding to build an airport and a metro too?

No - of course not, you don’t allocate funding based on pro rata, you do it based on demand. Cork & Shannon airports have capacity so they don’t need new runways and terminals.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729093#Comment_122729093

Except that that line is already incapable of handling the desired mix and volume of commuter and intercity traffic - unsurprising, since the physical lines are essentially the same as they have been for a very long time.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729136#Comment_122729136

An utterly ridiculous talking point that no one has suggested about Leitrim.

You allocate funding on the basis of fairness, need, and equity when possible. It isn't fair that twice per captia gets spent in Dublin in comparison to say Limerick. I am talking about general government funding for a variety of infrastructure projects. And the people wonder why Dublin is 'at capacity', with its own infrastructure creaking..

It's the fallacy of induced demand/traffic.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729122#Comment_122729122

Well, Cork has twice the population of Exter, and if you includes Cork's Metro population, its closer to 3 times the population.

Cork would be much nearer Bristol in terms of size and economic output than Exter.

As to your last point, when the road networks get upgraded, N/M20, N24, N25 then yeah, that could well happen that one airport starts to grow taking over flights and routes from another. It could well be that Shannon or Cork becomes the predominant airport of the South-West/South. I would be OK with that, and in fact that is what will probably happen longer term.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729150#Comment_122729150

Corrrect.

That line is already at capacity and the mess Irish Rail made with its timetable changes is proof of that. Running a spur to the airport, is a none runner tbh, unless the whole line gets a serious upgrade.

NITRO95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122725284#Comment_122725284

Just out of interest what do you mean by "a couple" of flights? Are we talking 2,3,4? Because if you are saying the airport isn't currently capable of handling more than 4 incoming flights at once then why are people spending so much time arguing for more flights?

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729150#Comment_122729150

Shuttle!

lisasimpson

The airport is well able to handle more flights and people. It's just the configuration of passport control area is tight for some reason than other areas of the airport. probably more noticeable now given the numbers of non EU nationals living here etc Then the last few times I've used Cork airport there was only 2 working the passport control desk which doesnt help. Once you get past that you've your bags in no lenght of time

Marcusm

markodaly Are you smoking something? The population of Devon alone is 800,000 - that would be the immediate hinterland of Exeter airport. Cornwall would add another 500,000 and I picked those as geographically remote as west Cork and Kerry! Truly, they have a much larger pollution, many multiples of Cork and Kerry rather than the other way around.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727035#Comment_122727035

So far all we have is a bald assertion "backed up" with "John Moran said it" and now you want us to go to the RTE Player to hear John Moran saying it… ridiculous. If this claim has any substance whatsoever then it should be easy for you to find figures from a credible source, not a vested interest, and link to them.

It's not up to anyone else to back up your claims so if you cannot or will not do so, they can and will be dismissed as BS.

It's looking more and more unlikely that this twice as much infrastructural investment per capita claim has any credibility to it at all

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729758#Comment_122729758

I also wouldnt agree with him that John Moran comes across as informed. Hes definitely been wrong on Twitter in recent weeks.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727090#Comment_122727090

This is getting sillier and sillier, did Shannon Airport fund the N18 upgrade?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729895#Comment_122729895

Isnt the DAA a semi-state that has had the benefit of 60 years of government support and funding behind it before it went 'private'?

Let's not pretend that DAA are entirely self-made with not a red cent from the taxpayer…

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732172#Comment_122732172

Aer Rianta paid dividends to the State; and were also forced to bail out CIÉ by buying their basket case hotel division.

Victim complex and revisionism, great argument bases.

That's before we look at your self contradiction. Moan about Cork being "saddled" with a new terminal in one thread, whinge about Cork needing terminal expansion in another. Which is it?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729758#Comment_122729758

I am repeating what John Moran said. It seems to grate on you, but as I said, by all means fact check it, or are you expecting a thesis from me on it?

If you actually paid attention and read up on the lack of fair funding towards the regions, you will know that regional papers often run stories like this.

E.g.

It reveals that, since 2016, the Northern and Western Region of Ireland has received less than 10% of the nationwide total investment in infrastructure projects worth more than €1m, and just 5.7% of investment from infrastructure projects worth more than €20m, despite accounting for 17.6% of Ireland’s population.

In contrast, the Eastern and Midlands Region of Ireland received 66.5% of investment from projects worth more than €1m, and 75% of those worth more than €20m.

As the Eastern and Midlands Region accounts for less than 50% of the population of Ireland,

https://connachttribune.ie/lack-of-infrastructure-and-infrastructural-investment-holding-back-western-region/

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729758#Comment_122729758

https://www.waterford-news.ie/opinion/phoenix-the-investment-gap_arid-34469.html
https://www.waterford-news.ie/opinion/phoenix-direction-of-travel_arid-33109.html

It has not been explained to anyone’s satisfaction why €19,000 per capita should be spent in the Dublin region under the National Planning Framework (NPF) up to 2040, while only €7,000 per head should be spent in the southern region, which includes Waterford. 

Similar figures being quoted in this publication. Apparently the figures come out of the National Planning Framework 2040. Waterford to get €7,000 per capita, while the Dublin figure is €19,000.

Again, go disprove the figures..

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732179#Comment_122732179

It must be great to just make stuff up on the fly and pretend I said something.

whinge about Cork needing terminal expansion in another.

Where did I explicitly say that Cork needed another terminal…?

But, anyway, my point was in regards to DAA being 'self-funded', when in fact its assets have been funded by the taxpayer for 6+ decades…

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732336#Comment_122732336

You specifically mentioned terminal expansion in post 18, despite having whined about a new terminal. Own your own thoughts, please.

And you're still wrong about taxpayer funding. The state has taken nine figures out of Aer Rianta / daa in dividends; and that's despite decades of having to fund Cork and previously Shannon.

You have no coherent argument other than "waaaah!"

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732341#Comment_122732341

Post 18, where I never mentioned Cork.. that post?

The post I was responding to, and my reply was a general one about the regional development of the regional airports.

You have no coherent argument other than "waaaah!"

The only person who constantly gets personal is yourself. Multiple times you have done this. Why?