Are cycle lanes similar to "Must turn here" traffic signs?

justforgroups

Do you have to follow the path of a cycle lane? The pictures below show a junction where I am CONSTANTLY beeped at by cars turning left (or right, if looking at the pictures!) as I am continuing straight on. Have had many close calls here.

My understanding is that even though the cycle lane turns left, I have every right to continue straight on? There's no other cycle lane, e.g. in the straight ahead driver lane. To do that, I would have to leave the cycle lane to swerve in front of the cars turning left anyway, just to get into the straight-ahead lane, only to move to the left after the lights to continue on the cycle lane???

I've asked the council to extend the cycle path across the junction to make it clear cyclists can go straight here. Thanks.

justforgroups

Actually just reading some posts on page 17 of the "Meanwhile on the roads.." thread and see that it's not me, it's drivers not knowing the rules of the road 😀

standardg60

Let them beep, you're fully entitled to go straight there. Perhaps you could suggest to the council that they add a flashing left turn amber to the bottom of the lights too.

But I've no idea why they didn't run a cycle lane through the junction.

Princess Calla

It's grand saying "let them beep" but if there's a collision you will come off worse. Though you are perfectly entitled to go straight.

Could you position your bike in front of the cars at the junction?

Personally for me if I'm turning left and there's a cyclist beside me I'll always wait for the cyclist to pass and out of the way.

Ultimately you do have the right to go straight but as you'll come off worse it really is up to you to proceed with caution. Especially as you are aware it's a tricky junction.

extra-ordinary_

Leave the cycle lane? Heaven forbid!! You don't have to 'swerve' anywhere. If the lights are red then position yourself where your blue and red lines intersect then when you move off when lights are green you have already passed the left turn. If the lights are green as you approach then gradually merge towards left of the outside lane before you approach the lights, thus allowing cars to turn left on the inside while you go straight ahead, and then continue back into the cycle lane.

Have cycle lanes meant cyclists are now clueless as to where best to position themselves on the road in traffic?

justforgroups

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698211#Comment_122698211

Yeah exactly, a good driver would wait anyway just to see what the cyclist's going to do, but they seem to be few and far between 😥 Every driver turning left there seem to think they have right of way and/or I HAVE to turn left.
I try to move right a bit more, but it's also a bus lane and don't get me started on those 😋

My Spidersense is quite sharpened now - usually I hear a car flying up behind me, I know they're going to cut in front of me, whether I have the right of way or not. Ah the joys of cycling in traffic with drivers who don't know the rules of the road 😣

justforgroups

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698270#Comment_122698270

So, instead of using the cycle lane that is parallel to the entire road, cycle in the middle of traffic just so I can move into the left after the left turning road, to cater for drivers who don't know the rules of the road? Yeah that sounds much better 🙄

extra-ordinary_

hmm…don't know the rules of the road - so there's no left turn for cars there?

Cyclists are part of traffic and are vulnerable, so I'd advise getting used to reading situations and positioning yourself correctly. Or else continue whatever you were doing that prompted you to crate this thread.

justforgroups

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698303#Comment_122698303

It's a bus lane until a couple of meters before the lights, where it turns into a left-hand turn for cars. It's a bus lane after the lights, with the cycle lane still on the left.

Been cycling for 20 years and well aware of my surroundings. That's why I got a lot of close calls and no injuries (yet 😮) as I can generally sense when cars are going to slow down and wait, or cut me off.
I'm a driver myself and I would always wait for a cyclist to pass, as I always believed they had right of way but would wait regardless, as a cyclist is not going to win a fight with a car. Maybe it's just the apparent huge number of bad drivers on the road that got me thinking maybe I had missed something in the rules of the road that a cyclist had to follow a cycle lane, like a "Left turn only" type of traffic sign. 😋

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698270#Comment_122698270

So the OP should position themselves where they could be creamed by a bus/taxi travelling straight when they're moving back in? It is not a left only lane for every vehicle.

RobertFoster

Is that the Cheeverstown Rd? Enter the bus lane at the bus stop, take the lane and stay off the raised cycle track until you're through the junction. If there's traffic waiting to turn at the lights, filter on the right or stay behind them.

Let us know if the council reply to you OP.

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698342#Comment_122698342

If it's the lane for turning left then being in the cycle lane is left of the left turning lane and not left of the driving straight ahead lane.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698369#Comment_122698369

Quick look over the shoulder like you would before any manoeuvre surely.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698405#Comment_122698405

It doesn't matter if it's a left turn only lane, cyclists going straight still have priority, DCC are installing left amber turn lights for this precise reason.

ARX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698136#Comment_122698136

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say they didn't bother their holes thinking too much about it.

rob w

I would take the centre of the left lane and cross the junction with the cars, then tuck back in to the left hand side once across

blackbox

This is simply poor design. If there was no cycle lane, cyclists going left would keep left and those going straight on would stay in lane with the cars. The cycle lane should be split for left and straight on bikes. In this particular case, the cycle lane is causing more problems than it solves.

...and yes, I know it's not mandatory for cyclists to stay in the cycle lane.

Seth Brundle

As would I but a nervous cyclist wouldn't and is then put in danger by the poor design of the infrastructure (which shows that these cycle lanes aren't designed for cyclists)

CramCycle

The bike lane is not marked across the junction, it appears to go around the corner, implying if you go straight ahead, you are changing lanes. Not saying it is right, but that is what the markings in the ground say. Hopefully the council fix that or even easier, just remove the bike lane on the bend.

If possible get in the bus lane is the easiest option as that is straight through for buses and cyclists, although the multiple times I have went through this junction I have never had an issue in the bike lane and going straight through.

This said, is it possible the cars in front in the left lane have been indicating left before you get there? Legally it is a weird one, if they can clear the turn before you arrive, they are allowed too (even if the bike lane went straight ahead) but the fine margins of that are not worth taking a punt on.

Also, from a legal standpoint, the dashed line implies you are changing lane and needs to be rectified ASAP. So the other option is to indicate right as you approach the junction and merge out when it is safe to do so.

TLDR, until the council fix it, taking the bus lane as early as possible is the most safe and legal option IMHO. Most aware cyclists will know the light changes and will have a good idea of how close to the front they can get if they seen the lights change.

notAMember

To be safer as a cyclist going straight on, you need to be in the other lane , the lane that is for straight on. I don't know what you call that… white-lining, or split laning. But you get the idea, you share the lane with the car there. The other lane has a segregated lane for left turn.

The road has split. Left lane and cycle lane are for going left. Right lane is for straight on.

I can absolutely see how it is not marked correctly, the cycle lane should ALSO split, or be on the other side of the cars turning. It is both misleading and dangerous as it's done now. It should look something like this.

I will also say, that it was a layout almost exactly like the one in the photo here, where my daughter was almost killed, by a car driver on the phone crossing through the cycle lane. So it's not bullet-proof, but at least it's not ambiguous.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699998#Comment_122699998

So the left lane (not the cycle lane) is straight on for buses and cyclists. No need to move to the right lane. Just into the bus lane.

Do not split lanes unless supremely confident, there is a reason they call it funeral alley and it is banned in several places.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700159#Comment_122700159

It is marked straight on for Buses.

Not for cyclists though? Unless you see something there I don't?

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700558#Comment_122700558

Bus lanes, unless they're contraflow bus lanes are also for bikes, by default.

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699836#Comment_122699836

I seem to remember that this is recommended in Cyclecraft, at least in some situations. It has its downsides, but it's probably got the fewest downsides of the options available.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700558#Comment_122700558

Same as a bus light, it is for those who are legally allowed use a bus lane, so in this case, buses and cyclists.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700806#Comment_122700806

Yes, but this isn’t a bus lane. The bus lane ended 30m back. Hence cars in it.

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122703097#Comment_122703097

It looks as if the reason cars can't go straight on from that lane is because the bus lane begins again on the other side of the junction; with a cycle track, as it happens. It only ends to allow people in cars to turn left.

It's very hard to argue that people on bikes are the only transport mode at this junction that are not permitted to go straight ahead. In fact, cyclists frequently have to use a left-turn lane to go straight on, because they can't match the speed of the traffic in the straight-ahead lane and would have to constantly be ready to react to people in cars passing them on the inside if they tried to take the lane in the straight-ahead lane.

So carefully negotiating to the centre of the left-turn lane and returning to the cycle track on the far side, as already described is probably the OP's best bet. If people in cars are still harassing them, maybe find another route or cross as a pedestrian. I'm not sure I know this junction so I can't recommend what I'd do in practical terms, only theoretical.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058373366/are-cycle-lanes-similar-to-must-turn-here-traffic-signs

It's not entire clear are some road marking are cut off in the last image. But unless the markings say otherwise, I think you are in the wrong here.

You are leaving your lane to continue straight. While you have the right to change lane, you must yield to traffic in the other lane who has right on way in their. That's a pretty basic concept and I'm surprised how many are saying just plough ahead.

Pulling into the other lanes doesn't required you to swerve in, just pull in normally. What you are doing by ploughing on, is ironical swerving into the lane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698277#Comment_122698277

Can you post a google map link to the junction. As a cycle lane that runs parallel straight through that you are claiming exists, its not in the photos. It may be clearer on approach to the junction.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698587#Comment_122698587

Cyclists going straight have priority when their lane goes straight, not universally. An amber turn arrow is not the same as a green turn arrow.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122704891#Comment_122704891

Not so much that cars can't go straight because of the bus lane, the road goes straight, this lane only exists specifically a filter lane. It is a left only lane, the bike lane does not go straight.

The bike lane only appears on the road level for about 20m either side of the junction, only so that bikes can go around the corner without navigating pedestrians at the lights. Prior to that the bike lane is raise with the pavement.

Coming down from the pavement, and leaving a turning bike lane to plough across a filter lane is careless at best

2024-10-11_02h21_33.png

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705022#Comment_122705022

Nope, cyclists have priority going straight whether there's a cycle lane, a dashed lane, no lane, or a left turn green arrow.(Unless there's a separate red light for cyclists)

In the pic the cycle lane is dashed, all this indicates is that the road is now shared between vehicles and bikes. So there is no lane to change out of nor any onus on a cyclist to adhere or follow the bit that goes around the corner.

What the dashed lane is for is to remind drivers that they are sharing the road space now, and the corner bit is to stop them cutting the corner.

tomasrojo

I think I didn't express myself very well. I meant that the cars have to go around the corner in that left-hand lane because it is a general left-turn lane, and the bus lane disappears to allow it to be a general left-turn lane, the bus lane then resumes on the far side. The people in cars are being allowed in the bus, em, "corridor", temporarily. If they were to try going straight on from that lane, they'd be in the legal bus lane, so there is writing on the road to stop them. It isn't there to stop cyclists ending up in a bus lane.

tomasrojo

Whatever about the legal ins and outs, that junction just screams to me that you just shouldn't try to go straight on from the inside of left-turning general traffic. The legal compulsion to use cycle tracks was removed partly because of situations like this.

If you really don't like leaving the cycle track, carefully position yourself just about on the dividing line (you may have to negotiate to get there) and signal right as you approach the junction.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705113#Comment_122705113

Whatevering about legal ins and outs is precisely why some are even arguing about this, it's as clear as day that a cyclist going straight has priority over anyone turning left there, they are changing lane, not the cyclist.

All it screams is that a lot of people still need to be educated on how to use the roads here, instead of advocating that cyclists shouldn't do what they're legally entitled to do.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705083#Comment_122705083

How does a dash line indicating a lane, means that there is no lane? You've contradicted yourself. It either exists or it doesn't.

Just like on a road marking, a dashed line is still lanes (motorway lanes are dashed lines, are not lanes too?). A dash line means you can cross, provided it is safe to do so, ie it is clear. In this case the lane turns, so the bike is crossing the line, so must give way. If the bike lane split and went ahead, then it's the car crossing it, and should give way.

Where are you getting it that bikes going straight have priority at all times? Cars should be aware when passing bikes, that they could be going straight, at any junction.
But that’s very different to overriding lane markings or other priority.

If the road had 3 lanes, 2 turning abd straight. You still think a bike on the inside gets priority over all turning?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705331#Comment_122705331

Cycle lane markings are different to road ones, they don't mean the same thing. You can't park on a solid line cycle lane but you can park all you like on a dashed one, because it's not a lane. It's basically paint on a road.

The very fact that you're questioning cyclists having priority going straight at all times suggests that you in addition to the above haven't educated yourself on the ROTR for a very long time.

kirving

The cylce lane color and paint extending around the corner do more harm than good in that situation.

Rightly or wrongly, it's reasonable that a driver could be momentarily confused by a cyclist exiting the cycle lane, to go straight, from the left side of the left turn only lane.

The best course of action, until the junction is corrected, is to move out into the main lane.

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705195#Comment_122705195

It's a terrible design, and while I'm interested in an academic sort of way what the legal situation is, my experience is that you have to make it clear by your "road language" (not sure what the driving/cycling equivalent of body language is) that you're going straight on. People mae a lot of assumptions: especially when the cycle track implies that you're turning left.

tomasrojo

I'm not sure that cycle tracks are officially "lanes" a lot of the time anyway.

Many of the on-roadway cycle tracks are just a part of what was previously a standard-width traffic lane. So, if such a cycle track IS a separate lane, the car lane immediately to its right is often narrower than a car (or just about the same width), and I presume the car lane breaches road-engineering standards. But we just let people in cars occupy what was the original lane, and say the cycle track is there to "remind" drivers that cyclists use the road. So it's not a traffic lane; it's more like an elaborate sharrow

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705496#Comment_122705496

Exactly, the road between the old Tuning Fork pub and the Yellow House in Rathfarnham is a perfect example of what a dashed cycle lane means. The road isn't wide enough to not drive in the dashed cycle 'lane'. It is purely marked on the road to remind drivers that it is a shared space.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705381#Comment_122705381

By crossing the line he is leaving the cycle lane and will be fully on the road. Not sure how parking on a bike lane is relevant.

I asked you to point to it on the rules of the road. You haven’t been able to. That suggests of the two of us, you’ve misunderstood some part, because I’m aware of what it actually says. It’s a very general comment.

You also ignored the question on multiple lanes turning. Would cyclist magic priority apply there too?

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705381#Comment_122705381

Well, legally you can't park "all you like" on a cycle lane bordered with a dashed white line (as far as I recall)

—

 A prohibition on the parking of a vehicle imposed by article 36 (2) (m) shall not apply to a vehicle parked in a cycle track, on the right hand edge of which traffic sign number RRM 023 has been provided, while goods are being loaded in or on to it or unloaded from it for a period not exceeding thirty minutes from the commencement of such parking.

(274/1998)

—

Legally. In practice on the other hand, you can park all you like. But in practice, you can't safely go straight on in the scenario in this thread, whatever about the legal situation.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705564#Comment_122705564

You didn't ask me anything about pointing to the ROTR. You're still referring to a cycle lane, it's not a lane. Your imagining up of a scenario is not worth responding to.

tomasrojo

My recollection, now I think about it, is that a cycle track has to have one of the three or so blue signs with the bicycle on it, and be bordered by a continuous white line, or a broken white line. Having just the line or even coloured tarmac doesn't make it a cycle track. I think the "sharrow"-style lanes I mentioned don't usually have the blue sign.

Anyway I suspect we've given this subject more thought at this stage than whoever designed this junction.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705607#Comment_122705607

What are you talking about. I asked you (twice now) where you were getting it from.

Where are you getting it that bikes going straight have priority at all times? 

That swiggly line at the end, that means it was a question. I wasn’t going constrain you to a particular source. But the fact you can’t produce any says enough.

Don’t worry about answering the other scenario. We both know why you have got one.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705496#Comment_122705496

A lot of the time that area just areas on the side of the pre-existing lane. But that clearly not the case here, which is what we're talking about. In the case there's road lanes in both directions, the cycle was separated by a kerb, and join the the road surface with no give in the road lane width or spec.
The dash line marks the edge of the road lane, as much as the cycle lane.

The markings could definitely be improved to provide the intentions more clearly one way or the other.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705566#Comment_122705566

For what its worth, the RotR refer to the same. And I'll add "all you like" to things a certain poster has pulled from thin air

A driver may park in a non-mandatory cycle track for up to 30 minutes, but only if they are loading or unloading their vehicle and there is no alternative parking available.

CramCycle

Just to be clear, the road signage there allows cyclists in the bus lane for the whole duration of the section of road. On the other hand, the cycle track varies from a cycle track, to a shared space, to nothing at all.

For this who want to be letter of the law about it, stick to the bus lane for the entire route.

For those motorists and cyclists in the real world, merge when safe to do so and don't pull across someone in the lane beside you, whether or not you believe it is a lane or where it entitles you to go is not as important as not being a d1ck.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122705910#Comment_122705910

Point me to anywhere where they don't, you're the one who stated it wasn't universal, that is what I initially replied to.

tommythecat

I would stick your right arm out coming up to the junction. This will alert the driver that you are going to not turn left and at the very least will draw their attention to you.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122706284#Comment_122706284

You made the claim that it’s a universal priority. The onus is on you to back that up. If that law exists should be easy to point to it, right.

It’s not possible for any one to prove a negative. I can’t point to where the law doesn’t exist.
(unlike your BS parking claim, I could prove you wrong as that law exists).

With a bit of sense, there’s load of situations where going straight won’t have priority.
eg: On a green filter arrow only when straight ahead is red. Inside a turn only lane, inside dual turning lanes.

justforgroups

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122698376#Comment_122698376

They have the money to build new cycle lanes in places that no one has asked for and no one uses, but not where cyclists need 😣

"If you need to contact SDCC about this enquiry please quote the reference CC…….

Thank you very much for your email.

Currently this junction is not on the scheduled programme of works.

This will be highlighted to the Senior Engineer in Active Travel, so when funding is available then something can be done.

Regards

Stephen Cullen

Exec Engineer

SDCC"