Security guards on Dublin Bus

StreetLight

First I'm hearing about this:

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2024/1007/1473888-dublin-bus-security/

Tow

I expect it is no more than the type of security that has been on the Luas for decades. There is not much they can actually do and many of the worse offenders have a free travel pass.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692379#Comment_122692379

Yeah. Limited scope. Limited powers. It might help a bit though.

The hours of operation amused me a bit though. 2pm to 2am.

Because scumbags don't get out of bed before lunch, is that the thinking?

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692379#Comment_122692379

Considering that the Luas security are now mainly revenue protection I can't see the security on the buses being much use. As they have no more power than a regular passenger the scumbags won't give a sh1t.

Another useless band aid to our anti social problems.

Saw a security officer on the Luas recently. She wasn't even 5 foot tall. Not sure shed have much affect on a syringe weilding junkie.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692409#Comment_122692409

My judo sensei was just 5 foot. I'm 6'4 and he could fling me in every direction. I wouldn't read too much into someones height.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692409#Comment_122692409

Imagine the scumbags who'd get on the busses if they thought they'd guaranteed an aggressive response - they'd probably even pay their fare.

This is not about any physical altercations.

Many members of the public won't report anti social behavior and even those that do don't want time taken up on a court appearance as a witness.

By having security personnel on routes that have a history of issues, you will stop some of it and diffuse situations, but you also have someone that as part of their job, makes reports on incidents, thus the cctv can be downloaded and the gardai have someone who will attend a court as a witness.

TheIrishGrover

Haven't been on the luas in ages. Not that I was ever on it regularly. But I'd use it going to The Point or similar. What happened to all the ex-military Polish guys who used to be on. They not there anymore?

The only problem here is that they (the scrotes) don't give a sh*t. They kick off, do their usual, what's gonna happen? Security will tell the driver to pull into next stop and it's not like they are gonna drag them off the bus (Unfortunately). They'll just wait there until guards/whatever come.

It's not like the scrotes have anywhere to be like a job or similar. It's all just a laugh for them because "It's not their fault. It's society's fault. They didn't have the facilities or method of channeling their issues" like apparently we all had in abundance….

LambshankRedemption

Just having someone there is not to be underestimated. Years ago there were ticket inspectors on each and every bus. They didn't have a security mandate but they did keep an eye on things. That is all that is needed.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692482#Comment_122692482

Granted that was at a time a funt up the hole type exit could be administered without getting sued over it.

bikeman1

We need a dedicated transport police in Ireland, with actual powers to detain the scum until the Gardaí arrive. It should be a fully funded 24 hour service.

This would give the Gardaí a break from their core duties.

Also the completely pointless Garda patrols on say the Portlaoise services in the middle of the day are very frustrating. I use the services late on Saturday's and that's when they are needed, but that doesn't fit their narrative.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692582#Comment_122692582

Make jokes if you want, but in most of the situations I have been in in recent years, someone telling someone else to cop the fuq on, was all that was needed to diffuse the situation.

thomasj

https://www.dublinbus.ie/news/introducing-our-new-safer-journey-team

(couldn't get the link to work)

JayRoc

I'm not sure I really get the whole "limited powers" objection. Civilian security have always had the same powers, it doesn't remove the need for doormen on nightclubs or security guards in shopping centres. They absolutely have powers of arrest and can absolutely use force to eject people from private property.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692598#Comment_122692598

It's not a joke.

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692831#Comment_122692831

....

https://www.dublinbus.ie/news/introducing-our-new-safer-journey-team

flyer_query

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692414#Comment_122692414

That would imply that the 5 ft security guard would need to use their skills in their job, this is both illegal and also dumb. Security should be a visual deterrent not a I wonder if that person is a sensei.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692587#Comment_122692587

I'd go a step further and say that a dedicated transport police force should be actual police, with the power to arrest and no need for Gardai involvement.

Ireland is pretty unique in the world with having only one police force, the Gardai. In the vast majority of countries it is completely normal to have multiple different police forces with different focus.

The obvious example is the British Transport Police, funded by the airports and railways, but real police with the power to arrest and even carry assault rifles! No reason we couldn't have the same.

ElJaguar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058373103/security-guards-on-dublin-bus

Long overdue.

o1s1n

Even if all this does is solve the problem absolute dipshits playing music through their stupid phone speakers, it will be money well spent.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693119#Comment_122693119

Oh for christ sake.

The poster I was replying to was saying the 5ft security guard would be no help with a junkie wielding a syringe. I was saying don't judge a book by a cover.

Security is a visual deterrent. Their size does not come into it, it is a person whose job it is, to keep an eye on things. Actually Ive a friend who is a security guard. She's about 5'4 and not familiar with any martial arts that I'm aware of, but when she says sit down, people sit down. People won't be openly dealing drugs on the bus if there is a security guard on it. A couple would not have a shag in the back of the bus if there is security on it.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692385#Comment_122692385

The only ones up and about in town before midday tend to be the addicts attending the clinics because they have to, these are mostly harmless. It's not needed in the morning.

But they'll have no powers, same as Luas security. Scumbags and dealers with free passes just getting on and off like a merry go round when they spot security getting on.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693125#Comment_122693125

Some countries have it where it's part of the national police but a dedicated unit of the police force.

BTP only cover railways they don't cover buses generally unless it's a transport hub with both bus and rail. Also in the UK police forces are regionalised the BTP are the only police that operate nationwide. A lot of the work of the BTP appears to be dealing with terrorism and football hooliganism issues that aren't as big in Ireland.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693125#Comment_122693125

Yep, Transport Police in Vancouver are not to be trfiled with and are very visible. Rarely any issues on public transport there. Should have the same here.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693234#Comment_122693234

Yes, but the real danger with that is that if resources are tight, they get pulled off such duties and put onto other areas like drugs, etc. We have seen that happen multiple times with the Gardai, where units like the Garda Traffic Corps have been whittled away to almost nothing. That is why I'd prefer them to be a fully independent force.

BTP use to cover ports too and they also cover trams, London Underground and various other Metro's around the UK. You are correct they don't cover buses, London Bus considered it in the past but decided not too. However recently there has been talk in the UK for the BTP to expand to cover ports again, airports and buses.

As an aside there are two other "nationwide" (Great Britain wide, not NI) police forces, Ministry of Defence Police and Civil Nuclear Constabulary, who police military and Nuclear facilities and the areas around them.

Anyway, that is all detail, the point really was an example of a separate transport focused police force with the powers of arrest, etc.

Tenzor07

Great news and a step in the right direction as it doesn't look like we'll have Transport Gardai any time soon.

I'm sure the security will be deployed on the worst routes around the city and on the late Bus's also, at least the Bus driver won't be left alone to deal with all the anti-social behaviour that occurs.

Sad reflection on Dublin that you can't even get on a Bus or Luas without needing private security these days.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693557#Comment_122693557

It's all down to a lack of consequences.

bk

In another thread it was mentioned that Security Staff and DB Inspectors were seen at the stops outside UCD at night, apparently making students dump their alcohol before getting on the bus.

I suspect it will be more things like that, rather then regularly riding the buses, though perhaps on particularly difficult routes.

I could see them around buses after concerts / sporting events, around O'Connnell Street, Abbey Street, etc. would make sense.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693725#Comment_122693725

Encouraging young adults to down their drink unusually fast before they get on a bus that could take up to 45mins….what could be wrong about that?? Ridiculous

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693332#Comment_122693332

Well if they did set up a transport police as not a part AGS what's to say that they're going to well resourced. No point in setting up a force if it's going to be small and ineffective.

Ireland actually more police officers per capita than the UK but still lower than most EU countries.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693725#Comment_122693725

Yeah that was myself who posted about that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693834#Comment_122693834

Thats usually been the case anyways if a bus driver didn't allow them on a previous bus, they'd usually down it before trying the next bus, so nothing new there. The benifit of this approach is that the security/inspector can turn them away at the stop if they seem drunk(/disorderly).

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693834#Comment_122693834

I believe they had a wheelie bin that they could dump it into.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693125#Comment_122693125

Why is it the Gardai have no problem with Airport Police, but the notion of a Transport Police puts their backs up? Is it a funding thing they're afraid of?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693930#Comment_122693930

Organisationally there is a world of difference, on the one hand you can have Garda senior management being able to move officers and resources around within the Gardai, between different units, versus them being a completely separate force, with their own budget and management. Sure the government via the department of finance could increase or decrease their budget, but it couldn't just disappear like it can under Gardai management.

Kind of like how DB management can't order a GAI driver to operate a DB route, different companies/orgs. But of course the NTA could award a new tender giving GAI more or less budget/routes, but it isn't quiet the same thing. It forces the decision to be made at government level, with transparency, in the eye of the public.

Also if it was being funded by Irish Rail, etc. they would be happier to have more say in a dedicated force (even be on it's board) versus just disappearing into the Gardai general budget.

The Gardai really don't have a good track record with this sort of specialist units.

Comparing per capita numbers between Ireland and the UK and other countries is interesting but can be misleading. We use our Gardai for many administrative tasks that the UK and other countries don't, the UK has been using civilian admin staff in police offices for years, meaning more on the streets. We are starting to go that way too, like with passport control at the airports, but we are further behind.

The other point to keep in mind is Irelands relatively very rural and dispersed population. Britain is far more urban and dense, so relatively easier to cover. Seriously take a walk around central London and it certainly doesn't feel like they have less police, they are everywhere, by comparison it is almost a shock to see the Gardai out and about in central Dublin!

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122694024#Comment_122694024

The Airport Police have been around since the 1930's, so I'd say just history. Also while the AP have the power to arrest, so are more then just security, they don't have the full powers of the Gardai, including bringing someone to court. So it is more of a case of the AP can arrest you, but then have to hand you over to Gardai.

As you say, probably fear over funding and just a general feeling that they have ultimate authority.

bk

BTW Interesting history, our first traffic wardens were actually ex-Gardai and were an auxiliary arm of the Gardai which operated out of Store Street and Pearse Street stations, eventually the job became a council responsibility. So we have been here before with all this.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122694115#Comment_122694115

It actually shocked me when I found out. I would have assumed Ireland had one of the lowest amounts of police per capita for an EU country given how few Gardai seem to be on our streets compared to most other cities.

I think some of the problem is the actual physicality and approach the Gardai let's face it the Gardai are not exactly as intimidating as say the Spanish police who probably baton charge you if you farted in their direction. Not saying I agree with police brutality but a middle ground can be had surely. Junkies should be afraid of the Gardai not the Gardai afraid of the junkies which seems to be the case atm.

Also noticed in recent years the security on the Luas now seem to be just average Irish lads and they seem to have more women now. Whereas it used to be big mostly Eastern European guyswhich seemed a bit more effective.

What's the point on having security if they're not going to be somewhat intimidating? I've heard it being said that their more interested in revenue protection than actual nowadays since the security is now in-house whereas previously it was done by STT security who were just contracted solely to do security.

65535

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692587#Comment_122692587

You need a dedicated transport section of the existing Police in DUBLIN - not Ireland

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122694022#Comment_122694022

Yeah it was one of those commercial sized wheely bins beside where the front doors of the bus would stop

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122693235#Comment_122693235

canada doesn't have the same kind of scumbags we do that kick off all the time in public though. i lived there for a while, even the homeless addicts are ridiculously polite when asking you for money.

i'm not sure how security on buses would work, never seen it anywhere in the world. will they just be available to respond to issues, or just go around random buses changing here and there like they do on the dart?

in saying that i've never encountered any trouble on buses that i can think of, apart from people smoking etc. but it's been a long time since that even.

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122694735#Comment_122694735

Why? Is anti social behavior only a thing in Dublin?

The CSOs on Irish Rail and I'm sure the city buses in Limerick, Cork and Galway have many issues at times.

justmehere

Just a general comment, that I'm finding this really sad, in the sense of it being a reflection on where we are going as a society.

Imagine how great it'd be if it was reversed: we had security on busses for decades, especially during the bad 80's, and today were able to announce that Irish society has progressed so far, we could actually disband transport security due to lack of incidents 😥

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122694911#Comment_122694911

No we didn't have security on buses for decades. Top deck of an 80's bus could be the Wild West at times and were phased out for years in some places.

Irish cities have been getting less rough generally.

mikeybhoy

Does the scheme only apply to DB operated services in Dublin or will the security also be on GAI services?

I really can't what a few lads in high vis jackets with no power are going to do about stopping ASB on buses. How many security guards have actually been recruited I've heard rumours there's only 4 2 (on the southside) 2 (on the northside) going to be working at any one time.

It kind of reminds of how they got extra cleaners during covid to clean the buses it's just to make it look like the company/NTA is doing something about an issue when in reality they're doing fcuk all.

mazdamiatamx5

Good.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122694936#Comment_122694936

This is very true, I think people forget or are too young to know just how rough Ireland was in the 70's, 80's etc. and how much better things are today.

Remember why Dublin Bus brought in the exact fare, no change, money box, because drivers were semi-regularly suffering from armed robberies and attacks to get the money!

I remember buses and bus shelters being absolutely destroyed with graffiti, burnt out seats, etc. You rarely see that any more.

Down in Cork City, entire bus routes use to be regularly cancelled because of rocks being thrown at the bus.

Large parts of Dublin City looked like a war zone in the 80's and were largely no go zones.

Of course I'm not saying there is never anti-social behaviour or that we should do everything we can to reduce it. But man are things so much better today then in the past.

What I will say, things have regressed and gotten worse since Covid and that isn't good, but still well off the past.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122695571#Comment_122695571

Things are still bad enough to put a lot of people off using Public Transport. I'd say that's the point that matters today.

I agree that things have regressed since covid.

JayRoc

Serious question for anyone on this thread who seems to think private security have no powers to detain or eject anyone; what do you think happens when a shoplifter is caught in a store, or a drunk starts a fight in a club ?

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122695932#Comment_122695932

They can make a citizens arrest but so can anyone

advisemerite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122695932#Comment_122695932

People don't think that, what most people think and they're right. They have no more power than me or you. They can arrest you and detain you, like the general public can them, if they think a crime has been committed. There powers is based on Citizens arrest and is very limited. There is a fine line between a security guard arresting and detaining you and false imprisonment. They can't charge you or detain you for periods like the Gardai can. They must hand you over to the Gardai almost straight away.

Most aren't trained in arrest techniques and don't have the ability the Gardai do. Lots of Citizens arrests end with compensation been paid out. Most security guards do what is essentially a low paid unskilled job just to get by and want no trouble with Scumbags.

They know they have no more powers than the general public and won't get the same support the Gardai get if things go wrong. Say if a robbery took place and the robbers made their getaway by car and a security guard had a mobile patrol van. They are entitled to follow the robbers like me or you. They are not entitled to activate blue or orange lights or break the speed limit or red lights like the Gardai can. Hence they have no more powers than the public.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122695643#Comment_122695643

There are a million people a day using public transport so it musnt be putting that many people off