MPI and potential suicide

optogirl

Hello folks - looking for some advice. Firstly - I am awaiting a date for inquest so know I can't do anything really until that occurs but:

Husband passed away last Summer. It was a drowning - he may have done it on purpose - had been very anxious and been to see the doctor 4 days before and was put on an anti-depressant.

Our mortgage is with Dublin City Council - when we took it out he had no history of mental health issues or any previous signs of depression or anxiety. The MPI with DCC is a group scheme - we had not choice but to go with the provider.

The documents we signed made no mention of suicide.

The insurance was then sold to a different provider who do have a clause with regard to suicide (no payout in event of death being self inflicted or if the provider 'deems it likely' to have been self inflicted)

This is the bit that really worries me as you could deem anything likely - if the inquest returns an accidental drowning verdict can they still refuse to pay out?

If they refuse to pay out, are DCC obliged to come to an agreement with me on payments or is it pay or go? We are only in the house 2 years and I have 2 young sons so this would really be a disaster for us as a family considering all that we have been through.

All advice gratefully received.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058371367/mpi-and-potential-suicide

Sorry for your loss. I don't have any direct knowledge of DCC and MPI. I did assist a family member though an MPI claim in a case of death by suicide many years back. In that case, the provider had a reference to no payment where suicide happened in the first twelve months, which didn't apply.

It seems strange that the insurance could be sold resulting in a change of terms and conditions for you, the customer. Did you sign up or agree to the changed conditions at the time of the sale?

If they refuse to pay, you'd have the options of direct legal action or complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman, though neither of them are likely to be speedy.

I'd expect that DCC would be slow to push towards repossession, as they'd only end up being responsible for rehoming you anyway if you were evicted. Is there some kind of reduced mortgage payment that you could try to agree with them?

optogirl

Yes I think that's what I will need to do. We did not sign the conditions that mentioned suicide but in every email conversation I have had with them they send me the newer ones and refer to the clause. I agree that DCC are not very likely to put a widow and her two children on the street but am nervous that I will be saddled with an unmanageable repayment which means my children's young years are a struggle. Ultimately they will be fine as they will inherit this house and directly inherit my husband's share of their paternal grandparents house but it is now that I need some cash flow with activities, school, Christmas, summer etc!

Sorry for your loss. Obviously in any conversation you may have with the insurers or the council, never suggest that it may have been suicide. It was always a tragic accident and you don't know how it happened.

spaceHopper

I'm really sorry for you loss. Are you still paying the mortgage, will any payout be from the date of his death. I'd be pushing to get this resolved as soon a possible so that you can start to rebuild you life.

What ever you do, accept that you are in grief and not in a good position to make decisions. Don't go to any meeting with out support from a solicitor or trusted family member. Don't agree to anything there and then, always say I'll think about it and get back to you. With the exception of yes they are settling it in full.

optogirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122671393#Comment_122671393

Well I know nothing can happen until after the inquest - no knowledge of when that will be (he died in July 2023). I have been interest only for a year now but DCC were very reluctant to let me have that and have said I will not be getting an extension on that. I really am hoping to hear of a precedent whereby the insurance provider accepted that they could not prove suicide and therefore paid out but perhaps that's wishful thinking.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122671445#Comment_122671445

Have you submitted a claim against the policy. Who's going to pay the interest back when this is settled. If the policy doesn't exclude suicide then why wouldn't it pay out. What cert did you get, have you in interim death cert of some kind? Can you get a solicitor to submit a claim against the policy. Can you get payments stopped or DCC to accept that they offered you a bad deal with interest only. Which you been in grief agreed to.

The new insurance took over the policy they saw the terms before they bought it and agreed to it. I don't see how they can change it.

banie01

I've been in a very similar situation to you and my advice to you is this. Engage a solicitor and ensure that they handle all correspondence and replies. In my own situation, after the death of my wife, whilst my mortgage provider was brilliant (EBS), my MPI provider was an absolute nightmare to deal with.
Multiple letters to me requesting medical information, information they already had complete access to.
Further letters requesting my own thoughts as to my partner's health and whether they had sought medical treatment that wasnt included in their records.
Each reply from me, was basically ignored and the cycle of requesting the same info again would start over.
I engaged a solicitor, I placed all info and all correspondence in their hands and the matter was finally resolved within a few months of that step.

I did the above as someone with a very good knowledge of the insurance industry and who "should" have been well capable of handling the matter.
That sai, the tactics employed by Irish Life were grinding and demeaning, I had enough to deal with my grief, my family's and in ensuring my son was being looked after.
Wasting my energy in dealing with Irish life, took from matters far more important than their effort to nickle and dime their way to a denied claim.

I am so sorry for your loss. I know that for me, I spent far too long dealing with the MPI because focusing on an external argument meant I didnt have to let my mind dwell on my loss and my grief.
For far too long I used it as a distraction, rather than just setting the appropriate professional on the case and spending the energy i put into that, into my son and wider family.
May memories of your husband in happier times be a golden light in the darkness of your grief.
Mind yourself, and honestly hire a dog and let them do the barking for you.

optogirl

Really appreciate that Banie01 and I am so sorry for your loss too. I hope you and your son are doing well. It is an absolute scandal that the bereaved spouse is punished for the ill health of the deceased. I will engage a solicitor - expensive as that may be. If it saves my house, it will be worth it.

optogirl

I have been told that I can't submit a claim until I have the final death certificate and that an interim is not sufficient

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122671929#Comment_122671929

Thats correct. Also, unless there is very compelling evidence with regard to your husband's intent when he entered the water?
It is very unlikely that a verdict of suicide will be recorded at the inquest.

A suicide verdict requires a relatively onerous amount of evidence as to the deceased's state of mind at the time they undertook the action that led to their death.
There needs to be fairly definitive proof via a note, voicenote, phone call or statements at the scene.
You may well wish to have representation at the inquest too, but in my experience, if you have questions, the Coroner is always quite supportive and responsive via email if there is anything you wish to query.

My own wife died just shy of 27 of Sudden Adult Death Syndrome. Irish Life spent literally years querying her health with me and ignoring the reports provided by her GP and by the pathologist in an effort to find an undeclared and pre-existing medical condition. They heaped stress upon my family and I at our lowest point.
Whereas, EBS to their credit, upon hearing of our loss (via a friend shared with the mortgage officer in our branch) suspended repayments, sent me a letter of condolence and really gave me a huge amount of breathing space.

Maxface

I have been at a few inquests for various reasons. Many suicides. A few times, the coroner came to me and stated that the family is looking to seek that the event is dealt with fairly. He stated that he feels there is no evidence that can directly state it was suicide (even though the man and the moon knew different) and he was going to rule that way unless I could state something different.

So, what I am saying is, get some good out of this tragic event. Get yourself a solicitor and get them in the ear of both the Gardaí and the coroner.

Deub

so sorry for your loss. I would have thought, if you didn’t sign anything, that the T&Cs with the new provider would be the same as your old provider.

The current provider could be simply sending you the standard communication without checking your contract. Your solicitor could clear that up.