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Budget 2025

  • 27-09-2024 4:49pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,086 ✭✭✭


    Thought I'd create a thread for the Budget as I am sure it will generate a lot of discussion.

    The Apple money is being booked for this year so there is an even bigger surplus;

    RTE news : Govt to record surplus of between €23bn-€24bn this year

    http://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2025/2024/0927/1472381-budget-white-paper/



«13456

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There is a general complaint among commentators, like the ERSI, about the lack of multi-annual funds for departments. This is a particular problem for infrastructure, but is a Gov wide problem.

    One aspect it that it prevents proper future planning of expenditure. Another is the fact that funds not spent at year end just die and are returned to the pot so mad items get funded so that does not happen.

    So we can hope the Apple billions get set aside for long term projects that are essential and will benefit from long term funding.

    Metrolink, M20, Eirgrid, and Irish Water all fall into this category. Particularly, the water supply for Dublin. These are all essential, and need long term funding.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Dazler97


    Thank you 😊 I was gonna open up a thread myself for this budget 2025



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,627 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    They're planning on cutting the USC by 1%

    Why not cut the bloody thing entirely? I suppose that means they wouldn't be able to campaign in the upcoming election on scrapping the USC



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,211 ✭✭✭893bet


    what’s the highest rate of tax you pay on income?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,457 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    USC is a good tax! Flat rate means that everyone contributes which widens the tax base. Getting rid of it would be a colossal error. They could re-name it maybe.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,835 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The USC has the features of a good tax:

    broad base

    low rate



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Plus it is much harder to avoid, particularly by high earners, and the self-employed.

    I think that is the reason it is so hated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,572 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Only a populist fool would scrap USC. The tax base should be broadened not narrowed.

    Irish government strategy is relying on high earners and corporations which is currently working and bring in high exchequer returns but is a recipe for disaster if something changes or goes wrong as with crisis of 2008.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    If they are looking at tax cuts, I would have thought raising the higher rate band threshold would be a better target than reducing any USC.

    USC has, and likely will always have, a reputational issue but its by far the best tax on the books.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,939 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I would suggest that property tax is a better tax, but it is pitched too low and applies to the owner. Also, capital gains tax on property is very hard to avoid.

    Also, many houses are declared as being valued in the lowest band, which, currently, for a habitable home is nonsense.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fair point, but the implementation of property taxes in Ireland leaves a lot to be desired I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,520 ✭✭✭fliball123


    AS much as I would get a benefit this narrows the tax base, we are also spending 4.5 Billion a year more if we take the excessive additional corpo tax away, this is not sustainable. The levels of corpo tax IMO has peaked this year. We will see the EU harmonization effects come in and other countries looking at how much money Ireland have got and will try and compete going forward. Trump has indicated that the US will be competing so in 10 years time we wont have this cash and our yearly expenditure will be through the roof and our deficit and borrowing getting bigger and bigger.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,553 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    Are there changes to tax credits on the cards? Doesn't appear to be much for those earning less than 40k…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,362 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    There'll probably be something but I'll wait rather than speculate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,137 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Sounds like more giveaways again this year, you'd nearly think there was an election looming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Juran


    Increase of €12 for long term unemployed & job seekers what I just read on RTE. There are so many open jobs in this country, we are importing both low and high skilled workers every week from EU and outside the EU. Its a decrease in welfare* rates which is needed as an incentive to go out and get a job. I really don't get the mentality ??

    I exclude disability, carers, pensions, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I don't mind the USC but I think it's relying too heavily of middle earners. 100k isn't really high earner anymore but that person is taking on massive work and responsibilities to simply support everything else. If such people didn't still struggle to make ends meet as a family ok but you probably need to earn 150 now to be able to afford the 8% rate. I think the 8% should be reduced to 6% until 150k



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 941 ✭✭✭Everlong1


    Yeah it's great to see the welfare lifestyle being made even more attractive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,137 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Madness. There seems to be no will to get long term claimants off the dole.



  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Ivor_Guddon


    yep it sickens me tbh , why not get the longterm gougers out to sweep the streets for their cash or clean up the parks etc , make them do like 5 hrs a week etc



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    100k is categorically a high earner. Exceptionally high even. It would have you in the top decile of all household incomes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    On paper yes but for someone in a decent area of Dublin with a couple of kids and a mortgage isn't going to feel very rich on 100k after the last coue of years of inflation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 250 ✭✭Dr.Tom


    You might spare a thought so for those of us living in a town in Cork with a mortgage and a couple of kids earning half that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,520 ✭✭✭fliball123


    You do realize that the person on 100k that the additional 50k would see them lose half due to the ridiculously high income taxes we have here and the government taking 25k on them. then the mortgage/rent differential between trying to get a gaff in Cork and Dublin would take another large chunk out of the remaining in 25k. God forbid if they have a kid or 2 with the cost differential for a creche. Then this is before the all of the higher costs that people pay in Dublin as apposed to Cork would see the differential being almost completely gone. So why should they spare any thought for anyone else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I was going to respond but then I saw you'd done it for me. +1

    Generally people on 100k are doing more for it and while we surely need a progressive tax system the burden on the squeezed middle is too excessive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 250 ✭✭Dr.Tom


    Lot of assumptions there flabag123....

    Is €50k in Dublin not €50k in Cork?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,520 ✭✭✭fliball123


    The income tax regime here punishes people and hard working people find themselves asking the question why work harder and longer, why would you bother doing O.T and then we have the moan fest when gards, nurses etc dont want to do O.T due to them losing 50% on tax + what ever it costs to do the extra work. When will the government take their feet off the neck of workers here. the 20% tax band should be extended to 60k and your tax free allowance should be upped to 30k allowing you to keep your first 30k. What is the point in people working their butts off when others will get the equivalent if not more on the dole for doing phuck all. They are actively incentivizing career and multigenerational dole heads.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    People on 100k aren't the middle no matter how much they like to pretend to themselves that they are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    Are you mad ? The income levy was sold to the population as the country’s finances were in bits.

    We accepted this to help the country through a bad bad time financially. We have upheld our part and most of the money needed has been paid back.

    It’s more than time to abolish it. Give it back.

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



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  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    We owe over 200 Billion, we have paid very little back, moving tax rates/bands is far better for the average person, the USC is by far the fairest tax we have as its close to impossible to avoid it unlike income tax which can be avoided easily enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,520 ✭✭✭fliball123


    No its not as we are talking about an additional 50k in pay in Dublin.

    If you take the averages of costs between the 2 cities

    Monthly net income after tax for someone on 50k is about 3237 a month for someone on 100k is 5304 amonth. So before any other cost a person earning that additional 50k in Dublin (or anywhere else for that matter) is only up by 2067 a month or 24k a year.

    Take average accommodation (both rental and mortgages I have the links below as to where I got these figures) as we all need to live and the amount differential drops to to 1329 a month so about 15k. When you put in the 12% cost of living differential (this is without accommodation) living in Dublin as apposed to Cork this drops to 1169 a month. So without kids your 50k works out at about 14k extra for that person a year. Throw in things then likes kids, creche/child minders, insurance and property tax and this differential goes down further.

    AFTER TAX CALC

    https://services.deloitte.ie/

    Average house price in Cork is 354307, in Dublin its 463265 meaning a person living in Dublin has to pay back 108958 extra for a house. The current average term left to pay a mortgage is 15 years with them starting at 29 years on average at an average rate of 4.19% lets leave that at 4%.

    So that 108956 after 15 years of payment works out at an additional 800 Euro a month for the lad in Dublin. Rent in Dublin vs Cork is about 450 more to taking the average of the 2. In Dublin they are paying about 675 a month extra for accommodation.

    According to numero then Dublin is about 12% higher than Cork that excludes accommodation. If you add in a kid or with creche fess it becomes even less.

    IRISH PROPERTY PRICES (Dublin vs Cork)

    https://her.ie/life/average-house-in-ireland-costs-new-report-618391

    AVERAGE MORTGAGE TERMS LEFT TO PAY

    https://moneysherpa.ie/mortgage-statistics-housing-statistics-ireland/

    AVERAGE MORTGAGE FULL REPAYMENT PERIOD

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1415491/average-first-time-buyer-loan-term-ireland/#:~:text=In%202017%2C%20the%20average%20loan,subsequent%20borrowers%20was%20notably%20shorter.

    RENT IN CORK AND DUBLIN

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41462815.html

    So long story short the additional 50k in Dublin is not equivalent to 50k in Cork.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,099 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    How did we get by pre 2010, when there was no USC?

    Govt debt gets rolled over, ad infinitum. Same as every other 1st world country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,918 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


     Its a decrease in welfare* rates which is needed as an incentive to go out and get a job. I really don't get the mentality ??

    Cutting dole at a time of economic prosperity is a big no-no with Irish voters. The small minority who would favour such a move, FG reckon are already in their corner anyway…



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    Before 2010 we owed about 30 billion, no real need to expand why there was no need for USC before 2010, again I say the USC is the fairest tax we have, if you believe we should be taxed less then it would be far more beneficial that we reduce income tax rates and increase income tax bands than doing anything with the USC which catches the vast majority of people to pay something, I will guarantee you that the very highest earners in Ireland dislike the USC far more than income tax which they know they can avoid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,099 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Looks like the 40% tax band will widen to 44k, but that is still very low. Its equal to 60k in the north, where the cost of everything is cheaper.

    We have the USC, a very low personal tax allowance and a very low entry point for 40% income tax.

    Anyone earning an average salary or above is hit from all angles.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    Agree with what you say but that tax burden on people should be reduced through income tax mechanisms rather than tinkering with USC, USC brought in 5.4 billion in 2023 while Income tax brought in just over 25 Billion, how much higher would that 25 billion be if people could not avoid it as they can't avoid USC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    Forestry, EIS, Films, Start Up companies and lots more are all legal but Joe Soap likely does not have the disposable income to invest, plenty more too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    What income bracket are you thinking are the 'avoiding tax' bracket? The top 1%? You probably need 130 just to get started on top 1%.

    I don't think the 100k earner dislikes USC because they can't avoid it. I think they dislike because they are genuinely getting hit too hard by it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    Its 8% over 74K on top of income tax, as another poster mentioned earlier, 100K is not as rare as people seem to think, the median for the top 1% is about 280K so you can see that's 16K extra they pay because of USC.

    A drop in income tax can offset USC and give the same outcome if tailored correctly, why would you do away with a tax that is unavoidable like the USC when income tax can be adjusted which can be avoided with good tax planning by those with disposable income?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,457 ✭✭✭✭zell12




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭csirl


    Would be better phasing out "income tax" altogether and replacing it with "USC", but with banded rates. USC is way more efficient due to lack of avoidance, which means the USC rates would be much lower for everyone than tne 20% and 40% income tax rates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,099 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    The. scale down income tax. Its all tax at the end of the day.

    I understsnd some may avoid USC, but do we think all self employed folks are paying their due level of income tax and PRSI?



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    Very few avoid USC, a far bigger amount of people can avoid income tax, reducing a tax people can avoid is far more prudent than reducing a tax that can not be avoided.

    Those with high disposable income have a variety of ways through tax planning to reduce their income tax which do not apply to USC, 5.4 billion in USC taken in last year against just over 25 billion from income tax, the 25 billion could very well be 35 billion or more if certain tax reliefs were not being used to minimise tax due, the normal Joe soap only has pension tax relief that they can afford to avail of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 250 ✭✭Dr.Tom


    I have to commend you on such a detailed post but.…

    All your calculations are based around property. Why? I never specifically mentioned rent or mortgages. You're gone of on a desperate tear altogether to justify how €50k is different between Cork and Dublin based solely on rent and house prices.

    In relation to your comment about the average of costs between the two cities.

    Is a week's shopping dearer in Dublin?

    Is home heating oil dearer in Dublin?

    Is petrol and diesel dearer in Dublin?

    Is childcare dearer in Dublin?

    Please don't tell me I'm missing the point. I understand your point but there's more to the "cost of living" than paying a mortgage or rent, hence the term living.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,703 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    So the dole will be 244 euro per week after this budget ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Dazler97


    It's looking that way except for job seekers by the sounds of it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    Who is doing away with it? If you move the 40% tax bracket everybody gets an equal advantage while the squeezed middle continue to take the load.

    Most people here loved USC as no-one can escape it. That's great. I like that about it but I think it's too heavy in the 74-110k bracket and folks should stop pretending those people spend their year in fancy restaurants making plans for the Chelsea Flower Show.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I think yes, those things would be dearer in Dublin especially childcare.



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    Yea, Income tax adjustments are the way to go to reward that cohort, leave USC alone.



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