Solicitor costs query - under charged on invoice

Tomw86

I bought a house in July 2023 (so nearly 15 months ago) and the solicitor provided me with a final invoice where the total qutoed was 2,407 euro which was around what I expected. There was a breakdown in the invoice but I did not look at them in depth at the time as I had 100 other things to try and sort out too. I paid the amount due and considered the invoice fully settled.

They have now come back to me stating that when adding up the breakdown figures the amount due is actually 3,067 euro and that they miscalculated this when getting to the total quoted, so a difference of 560 euro is due to them.

I would like to know if they can pursue this amount through the courts or what the recourse for them is if I refuse to pay?

Or does the payment I made at the time, which matched the ‘Total’ on the invoice, mean they have to accept the error on their end?

Any advice here would be appreciated as my preference would be to tell them that this issue is closed and the invoice was fully settled as quoted.

Jim_Hodge

Did the invoice have "E&OE" anywhere on it?

Tomw86

Does that stand for estimate? No, it was a final completion statement which had a total 'Balance due on closing to complete purchase' and then after that the 'Plus Legal Fees& stamp duty' amount which is what I paid and they have now come back saying they miscalculated based on the figures in the breakdown further up the invoice.

Tow

The total on the invoice is the legal amount to pay. The fact they cannot do maths is irrelevant. Years ago before everything was computerised many large companies employed people who's job was to check suppliers invoices and most importantly make sure the total was correct. If the invoice line items added up to the total or more, they would pay the total. If the total was higher they would dispute the invoice.

Tomw86

They have somehow added up the 'Outlay' figures such as Commission, fees payable to law searches, land registry on Deed of Trasnfer and Mortgage Deed and fees to open folio incorrectly when calculating the sub-total for this which was then added to the professional fees plus VAT.

Tomw86

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658872#Comment_122658872

So are you saying that essentially as I settled the invoice for the total figure they provided me then they have no recourse here?

My intention would just be to tell them that I settled for the amount quoted and any error on their end is no my problem.

Allinall

You owe the extra amount, if it was a mathematical error on the invoice.

It’s similar to an item being priced €5 instead of €500 in a store.

beachhead

They are solicitors.They will will come after you.You should try to negotiate the o/s amount downwards.Your dealings with them look like a one off,so will be difficult to deal with.Argue,argue,argue but gently

Sadb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658895#Comment_122658895

But legally could the shop come back after over a year and say “actually that item you bought was priced wrong on our system, you owe us €495”

Tomw86

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658895#Comment_122658895

It was their mathematical error on the invoice though. And I do understand what you're saying but if you went it to a store and bought an item for €5 and then 1 month later went back in to the store and they said 'oh by the way that item that we charged you €5 for was actually €50 so you owe us the extra' I don't think that would stand up!

Paddigol

Are you actually looking for legal advice here? As in, what the law would say if they sued you for payment of fees properly incurred but erroneously billed?

Or are you appealing to the court of public opinion as to whether it is a d!ck move to shaft someone for money that is fairly owing to them because someone in their office made a calculating error (it happens to us all at some point) when preparing the invoice?

Not sure if you were happy with their services or if you believe in karma. If cash flow is an issue it would be perfectly reasonable for you to say that you'll pay it in instalments over a period of time that works for you.

But if its legal advice you're looking for I'll let someone else field that one…

Tomw86

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658900#Comment_122658900

Thanks, thinking about this also - meeting half way somewhere.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658863#Comment_122658863

No, it's Errors and Omissions Excepted.

Tomw86

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658906#Comment_122658906

Looking for the legal standpoint on it to be honest. I was happy with the service, no issues at all, but they've come back over 15 months later and sprung this on me in a way I'm not happy about. I can't pay it in one go at the moment.

Legally though, can they come after me for it, that's ultimately what I want to know?

I am querying this with FLAC also.

beachhead

Any way you can nit pick the quotes for each action they carried out to reduce the amount?

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658916#Comment_122658916

We are getting old Jim. When what were once common knowledge clauses and caveats are now mystical incantations 😳

highpath

Offer them €200 cash.

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658882#Comment_122658882

This is what we were thought in college decades ago.

Tomw86

I've gone down the route of offering them a 'goodwill gesture' to contribute towards THEIR error.

There is no E&O statement on the invoice/completion statement anywhere.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058370775/solicitor-costs-query-under-charged-on-invoice

You should get proper legal advice on this - ask your solicitor! 😎

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658863#Comment_122658863

Assuming it less that six years since they sent the invoice (and they have E&OE on it) then you have to pay.

You might string it out, asking for a full accounting of how this negligent invoice was sent out and ask them to emphatically state and guarantee that no further errors are in the invoice.

You might also inform them that you are seeking independent legal advice on this and expect them to pay for this.

Of course this could back fire, if the find another mistake and add this to the outstanding amount, or you need their services again.

Hooked

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058370775/solicitor-costs-query-under-charged-on-invoice

Scan the original invoice for any "get out of jail" wording. Like the E&OE mentioned.

Any solicitors fees I have paid, I have haggled on - as they are HUGELY inflated. If they fecked up the maths, that's on them. You paid the total. Most I'd pay is to meet halfway - but if they had no escape route on the original invoice, I'd be simply ignoring it. Or at the very least, dropping a curt email to say that the TOTAL was paid as agreed at the time.

They'll hardly want another solicitor involved, showing up how they couldn't do basic addition. 😜

Dr Karl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058370775/solicitor-costs-query-under-charged-on-invoice

Contact the Legal Services Regulatory Authority

https://www.lsra.ie/

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658919#Comment_122658919

Would a court find in their favour if this was to be litigated? - Probably. But the chances of them initiating proceedings is likely slim, given the sum involved and the publicity impacts.

Offering them 50% in full and final settlement might be reasonable in the circumstances.

Lenar3556

If an item is priced at €5 in a store, you bring it to the counter, complete the transaction and walk out, you have bought it for €5.

Any subsequent claim from the store that the item was in fact worth more, that they had made an error etc. would fail.

Tomw86

So I've spoke to FLAC (LSRA do not do legal 'advice' but rather only complaints) and they have said, as others have, that it was their error and they would be very unlikely to pursue me legally.

I have considered the position and replied to them staying I would agree to make a goodwill gesture but it is no 50% - it is around 20%. To me the liability for this error is completely on their side and perhaps they need to enhance their process and procedures around issuing invoices to ensure this doesn't happen again. If my insistence on not paying ensures they do enhance their process then they will ultimately benefit from this not happening again in the future.

I am not sure how, after 15 months, they have only noticed this now but as far as I am concerned way too long has elapsed for them to come to me chasing this - it is a matter of principle.

happyoutscan

If it was a matter of principle, I would be paying it.

They provided a good service to you.

If current cash flow is difficult they would have had no problem you paying it as you could, in a way that suited you.

Good solicitors are hard to come by and you will - at some stage in the future - need one.

Claw Hammer

Did you gat a Section 150 letter at the start of your dealings with them outlining the fees which would be charged and the expected levels of outlay?

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660338#Comment_122660338

Exact same question went through my mind. If the answer to this is no then they haven’t really got a leg to stand on, morally or legally.

C3PO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122660101#Comment_122660101

Do you a mean a “matter without principle”? You owe the money and imo should pay it but you can probably get away without paying if you want to avoid it!

scwazrh

Foolish to fall out with a good solicitor over 500quid.Also a bit unprofessional of the solicitor to come back chasing 500quid a year later

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658900#Comment_122658900

Why do you think they would come after him for 500 quid because they are solicitors? Not sure what connection you are getting at there. I would think solicitors are exactly known for throwing money away cashing trivial money through the courts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658895#Comment_122658895

I take an item to the till in a shop. And the owner rings it up, charges you 240 euro. I pay, say thank you and leave the shop.
A year later the owner discovers the item should have been 296 euro. You are claim that I now owe him 56 euro? Really?

There are example that might have worked, but a shop is not one of them

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668119#Comment_122668119

…but you may need to buy something from that shop down the line. What do you expect them to say to you then?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661191#Comment_122661191

I’d love to see the wording they used in this letter- I would bet that there’s not a hint of empathy - ie we appreciate this bill may cause you financial hardship and will work with you on a suitable payment plan

If it’s just a “demand” and “pay within 30 days” sort of style, I’d be writing a very strongly worded letter back - that might soften their tune. Obviously someone is going over past paperwork and payments - maybe due to a number of other errors encountered.

If it were me, it’s all down to the approach - if their letter was somewhat apologetic and empathetic I’d probably get out the credit card and pay it straight away - but if the letter was just cold and “demanding” I’d certainly be making a “fuss” and would wait for a reduced fee letter to issue

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668135#Comment_122668135

Sure, it may be a local shop And you may decided to pay them anyway. But choosing freely to to pay something in order to maintain a good relationship is not the same as being obligated to pay a price correction over a year later.

The claim you would a shop for priced corrections years later is simply not true.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658919#Comment_122658919

your agreement with the solicitor was for them to undertake the conveyancing and for them to bill you for out of pocket expenses (necessary for the conveyancing) plus their professional fees. If I understand your position, they have listed the out of pocket expenses but then mistotted them as a subtotal before adding their profession fees and VAT with the effect that the grand total is less than it should have been. In the absence of any dispute as to the quantum of the professional fees or VAT (which you did not list) then essentially they have failed to force you to meet your agreed obligations to pay the out of pocket expenses. If they did not issue with the client letter in advance or if there was some other procedural failing then you might have a position to argue with them. However, if they paid the expenses and informed you of their quantum, I can’t see that their rotting error vitiates your obligation to discharge the full amount due to them.

They might hate the publicity so might not follow up on their threat but I doubt you have a leg to stand on (but at least you have a house to live in).

Tomw86

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122668158#Comment_122668158

It was only an email they sent - no official letter or phone call to explain/discuss. Wording is below:

Hi X,

I hope you are well. Please note after reviewing your final statement, it came to our attention that you were quoted incorrectly for completion fees. XXXX, who took care of the final statement, added €XXXX in error, however the correct amount is €XXXX (€XXXX plus €XXXX = €XXXX).

I would be obliged if you could please put us in funds of an extra €XXX, our client account details are attached, please quote your reference XXXX/XXXX when transferring.

We apologise for this error and any inconvenience it may have caused. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate in contacting me.

I mean I've no issue with the wording but was expecting something like 'let's discuss this over the phone' or 'happy to discuss a suitable resolution'.

Since I've gone back to them on Friday I haven't heard anything anyway!

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122671229#Comment_122671229

Fair enough - good luck whatever you decide - if you were happy with them overall and feel you’ll use them in the future, I reckon you’ll likely pay up - but if money is tight I’d certainly be doing it over say 1 year or even 2 if money is really tight - 40 quid or 70 pm is totally acceptable and they can’t say boo to you if you volunteer to do that

Claw Hammer

What the the letter of engagement say? The letter before the conveyance started at all?

Tomw86

So quick, final update on this:

Had a call from the main solicitor today - practice has his name above the door.

He rang to acknowledge their error and outlined that the proper process wasn't followed on their side in terms of fees added in excel spreadsheet, reviewed and then sent, etc. Seems like they were reviewing this related to one particular employee. Anyway we agreed that we would meet half way and that is a satisfactory conclusion on both our sides, plus will pay them back over a few months.

Happy for the thread to be closed in any case.

Thanks for the all the advice and it's certainly a first for me in terms of this happening…and hopefully the last.