De Niro and Pacino in Heat: A Bygone Era

RickBlaine

I watched Heat again yesterday and it is obviously a great modern American classic. The legendary pairing of De Niro and Pacino drove a lot of the hype and expectations back in 1995. It got me thinking if that could ever happen again. In 10 years time, will we be looking forward to finally seeing Adam Driver and Ryan Gosling in a movie together with the same significance as De Niro and Pacino in Heat. I doubt it somehow.

As good as Driver and Gosling are, there is a legendary status that De Niro and Pacino have reached that seems to have transcended their raw acting skills and instead is the result of something more rare and mythic - a product of their time that cannot be reproduced. The landscape of cinema has changed with less emphasis on A listers that it is almost impossible for the newer generation of actors to achieve the cultural weight of De Niro and Pacino who probably benefited from starting their career during the American New Wave era. A huge bulk of cinema going audiences today seem more excited about the pairing of individual superheroes characters than actual actors. Cinemagoers in 1995 were excited about the collaboration between De Niro and Pacino; cinemagoers in 2024 are excited about seeing Deadpool and Wolverine together.

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058369777/de-niro-and-pacino-in-heat-a-bygone-era

you end up saying most cinema-goers aren't excited about seeing such thing again but started by saying it won't happen…, so how could any cinema going plebs be excited by something you say isn't happening?

(It could and does on happen TV)

MfMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058369777/de-niro-and-pacino-in-heat-a-bygone-era

Yes, Heat is the usual Michael Mann superficial eye candy with a typical-of-the-era way OTT performance by Pacino. Even though I am usually non-plussed by both actors, De Niro is restrained enough in fairness. (For me, both did their better screen work prior to 1980). I'm ambivalent by Gosling's minimalism but I like Driver so may catch the remake.

Sorry.

Decuc500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058369777/de-niro-and-pacino-in-heat-a-bygone-era

You're spot on about modern audiences being more concerned with superhero matchups. It's all a bit depressing really. Mass saturation of superhero films have dumbed down popular cinema.

It's all a far cry from mainstream cinema catering to actual adults. Heat successfully melded the cultural power of titans from the New Hollywood era with crunching 90's thrillers.

magicbastarder

If one of the more remarkable things (in the sense that people remark on it) is the long awaited on screen meeting of Pacino and DeNiro - that doesn't say much about the movie! It's an alright scene. If it hadn't been their first meet we wouldn't be talking about it; I've seen the movie a couple of times (albeit probably 15 years since the last viewing) and I can't remember much of it, except the street shootout and the above scene. It's not a movie which stays with you, IMHO.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122637930#Comment_122637930

The only part that really stays with you is the shootout. That's the bit that is from a bygone era. There's no way they'd get away with firing automatic weapons in the streets of LA now.

breezy1985

Heat was hyped up because two wrongly typecast actors were together in the type of movie they were typecast for.

The rest of the post is just Abe Simpson talking about what "it was"

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122637994#Comment_122637994

Interestingly Heat uses almost the exact same script as Mann's TV movie LA Takedown from a few years earlier, all Pacino and Deniro do is make it a bit more intense as they are both older than the original actors used.

Ardent

Heat is a great movie with superb action and perfect pacing. The De Niro / Pacino diner scene though is hugely overrated.

Ardent

On the point of Pacino being OTT, there's an interview with him on YouTube somewhere where talks about how Hanna was portrayed as a coke fiend in the screenplay and he was paying service to that.

Ted222

There was nothing particularly good about Heat. Pacino and De Niro starring together for the first time was just a marketing ploy.

Michael Mann directed Miami Vice. That’s the level the movie’s at.

johnny_ultimate

Too young to have noticed or cared about the hype around Pacino and De Niro being ‘together at last!’ Instead I have merely belatedly enjoyed Heat for what it is - an immensely slick and operatic thriller from the master of slick and operatic thrillers. Long, indulgent, sprawling - and all the better for it.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058369777/de-niro-and-pacino-in-heat-a-bygone-era

Think there's a certain amount of, perhaps errant, "things were better back in the day" thinking to this - that audiences back then were more discriminating than now, with the present day folks only interested in superhero nonsense.

The reality is that the number one box office movie in 1995 waassssssss - Batman Forever. And the atrocious Ace Ventura: When Nature Calls was number 5. Heat, meanwhile, only came in at number 53. (Now, part of that is because of its late-year release, so some of its box office takings came in 1996 - but even if you total them up together, it's barely troubling the top 25). The likes of Heat or Deadpool x Wolverine (and Batman Forever) are answering very different film niches to each other. They're not in competition.

As for the lack of names with that gravitas within pop-culture now… that's just sort of part of the reality of a more saturated media landscape. There was less room at the top before, so those that were there got more name recognition. Now, with a billion high quality TV outlets, and nigh on infinite movie streaming churn, it's hard for any individuals to register that same level of clout.

eightieschewbaccy

The oversaturation is a big aspect but we also tend to have a lot of big actors showing up in prestige TV. You get pairings of the likes of McConaughey and Harrelson in True Detective. None have the level of fame of DeNiro or Pacino at their peak but it's great combos.

Plenty of great examples of ensemble casts in the likes of Knives Out, Snowpiercer, The Departed(older admittedly), anything from Wes Anderson etc.

I do think for cinema fans that there are plenty of actors that are an automatic draw. We can look at the past in rose tinted glasses. I'd easily rank the likes of Tilda Swinton, Daniel Day Lewis, Christian Bale, Joaquin Phoenix, Gary Oldman,Cate Blanchett, Natalie Portman among the likes of DeNiro and Pacino. They do plenty of shite among their greats(exception of DDL maybe) but DeNiro and Pacino do too. That's ignoring all the non US centric actors that are readily accessible to us all now. But I'm pretty sure if Daniel Day Lewis decided to exit retirement to do one more movie, half of Hollywood would be fighting to be in it.

NIMAN

I have seen Heat maybe 3 or 4 times, as used to own it on Laserdisc and had a surround sound system at home when I was younger, and it was an intense watch, even outside of the shootout scene. But that was amazing to listen to.

As for the film itself, very enjoyable from what I remember but haven't watched it in years and wondering how I would see it now. Often when I go back and watch some older films, I find them quite cheesy and/or outdated. But they were of their time.

I do remember thinking Pacino really hammed it up too much in Heat, like he has done in other films too. De Niro was a much better performance. I guess if I watched it again now his performance would annoy me!

But agree that there simply isn't the actors now that you'd want to see paired up on screen. Although I do enjoy seeing Pitt and Clooney together.

flasher0030

Some movie. Haven't seen it in ages. This reminds me to throw it on one of the days.

L Grey

That shoot-out scene tho.

Unreal.

The Davestator

I suspect this take won't go down too well here but here goes…

The nearest we have come to big actors doing movies together was the first Expendables movie in 2010 with the scene with Bruce wills, Arnie and Stallone. I know, as a fan of action 80s and 90s movies, I was looking forward to that!

FortuneChip

As said above - character cross-over gains far more attention that actor collaborations these days. I won't deny there was some excitement at seeing Thor & Captain America combine in the first Avengers movie (a much bigger draw than "Chris Evans & Chris Hemsworth teaming up"), who'd have thought a few years later there would be 30+ superheroes combining. But, it's diminishing returns. Ryan Reynolds may not be everyone's cup of tea on screen, but I think he's an absolute genius and tapping into that excitement with his marketing exploits. Everyone comes away from Deadpool & Wolverine talking about the cameos and not about the storytelling.

Back to Heat. One of my favourite movies, and I happily return to it on occasion. Pacino is nowhere near his best (Dog Day Afternoon, Serpico, Godfather etc), but he's highly watchable and I find it funny seeing his cocaine cop juxtaposed against DeNiro's understated criminal. I know it's almost word-for-word against Miami Takedown, but there is a gravitas that both bring to the aforementioned coffee scene, and having an understated conversation be their first scene together as opposed to an all-out war is very fitting.

loyatemu

It's a good movie, as well as the leads, Val Kilmer and Jon Voight are excellent in it. You either like Mann's style or your don't but I'd much rather watch Heat than an episode of Miami Vice 🙂

Both De Niro and Pacino did better work in the 90s though - De Niro obviously Goodfellas and Casino, Pacino did Carlito's Way and Donnie Brasco among more scenery-chewing roles.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752104#Comment_122752104

Another actor collaboration I'd like to see would be Samuel L and Denzel. Would be kinda like DeNiro and Pacino. Denzel could be the understated one. And Samuel could be like Pacino - like, "look at me, and how loud I can shout".

RickBlaine

I'm certainly not against character team ups if done right. My original point was that I think today's movie environment makes it tough for any actor to achieve the type of status that Pacino and De Niro had at the height of their career despite their actual talent. This means that a "together at last" approach to marketing wouldn't really make sense today unless it is characters and not actors. Heat was just a example but I'm sure there are loads more although probably not as hyped as Heat.

BTW, my dream, but wholly unrealistic, character team up would be Bond given a mission to track down a rogue CIA agent as a MI6 favour for the Americans. When Bond eventually tracks down the agent, it turns out to be Jason Bourne who manages to convince Bond that nefarious factions in the CIA are trying to kill him and are using MI6 as a pawn. The two then team up to bring down that conspiracy. It could never happen for two reasons: (1) Bond and Bourne are owned by different studios, (2) the Bond producers see Bond movies as major prestigious event releases and would not want to share the spotlight with another character.

Ten of Swords

Heat is a remake of a 'made for TV' movie that Michael Mann had directed 6 or 7 years earlier, which was itself based on the memoirs of a police officer Mann had befriended in the 70s

I never understood the hype surrounding the DeNiro/Pacino first meeting - as has been mentioned already in this thread, both actors had done their best work (imo) years before in their respective previous movies.

BTW here is the bank robbery sequence in the original TV movie (called LA Takedown). Heat is nearly a frame for frame remake of it (shootout starts at 3.40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EqYkCsxzXc

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122761489#Comment_122761489

De Niro was still riding high when Heat came out. e.g. Goodfellas was 1990, Cape Fear 1991, A Bronx Tale 1993, Casino 1995, and Heat 1995. He was far from past it.

Pacino also had some big profile movies in the early 90s, before Heat - Sea of Love, Dick Tracy, Godfather 3, Glengarry Glen Ross, Scent of a Woman, Carlitos Way. And then Heat came along. And lots of good movies after Heat - Donnie Brasco, Any Given Sunday, Devils Advocate, Insomnia, The Insider,

I can definitely see the anticipation that was there at the time for the two of them sharing the screen for the first time.

Shred

One of my favourite films and a cinema experience that still stays with me to this day; I can remember being sort of in a mesmerised daze on the bus journey back home…loved every minute of it and I've re-watched it countless times since.

Sure there was a lot of hype about Deniro and Pacino being on screen together for the first time, but IMHO it's a phenomenal scene with a lot of subtext that's beautifully acted without being "showy".

As someone's already said, Pacino played Hanna they way he did as he was supposed to be a coke head, apparently there was a scene filmed where he took a 'bump' but it was cut.

According to Mann, the story is loosely based on the real story of Chuck Adamson's pursuit of the real Neil McCauley in the 60's and apparently they did sit down to a coffee at one point (he was a consultant on the film).

I see sheep

Heat is the greatest film ever.

MisterAnarchy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752414#Comment_122752414

A good movie, no its a great movie, not just a good movie.

They dont make films like that anymore, the mid 90's was a golden age for films.

Brilliantly acted, well directed with a superb soundtrack.

I remember going to see it in the cinema at the time and they hype was huge and rightly so.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122773465#Comment_122773465

There's two film I came out feeling well shuck, Heat and Black Hawk Down.

Heat was a bit more intense in that I saw it in Belfast on the same weekend as the Canary Wharf bombing. We'd all decided to take our mind off the collapse of the ceasefire by going to this cool new movie with DeNiro and Pacino, but we didn't expect to face the most intense urban shootout in cinema.

We were all a bit numb after we stumbled out onto the street where we were immediately faced with armed RUC on patrol in the old landrovers.

Hyperbollix

I never really understood the fascination with the restaurant table scene in Heat, beyond the fact the two of them were on screen together. It was a bit over egged and badly written. It was hardly a tension filled Tarantino bit of dialogue.

Heat was a great action film, well paced, with no fat on it. Pacino's over the top shouty detective was a big hook for the film. As was the bank heist scene. You never forget the sound of those assault rifles echoing through the streets.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638431#Comment_122638431

Completely disagree, the coffee scene is perfect writing and great acting, easily the best scene in a superb film.

coolshannagh28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636818#Comment_122636818

Have to agree , an average film for that particular time and too long with poor pacing in parts . Both actors getting past their best and Pacino doing his era defining overacting , there was no magic in the scene they done together which was levered into the film to satisfy expectation .

drury..

The Irishman was a better pairing than heat imo

felonious_Gru

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849124#Comment_122849124

Good God No

Romario11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122849099#Comment_122849099

I don't understand how someone can be a film fan and think Heat is an average film. It is a glorious exposition of the art in almost every way.

coolshannagh28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122851476#Comment_122851476

Of that particular time , in 1995 alone you had Braveheart, Toy Story, The usual Suspects ,Se7en, Casino ….

drury..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122851476#Comment_122851476

Ah it's not tbh it's much better than average

It's a very good film of the genre

The lead actors carry it

Romario11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122851750#Comment_122851750

Aye those were a lot better days when it comes to film. But for me Heat is in a league of its own, its has an amazing style about it that all those other films don't have which pushes it up a few levels more. Manns direction is just brilliant and it was here with this film he reached his peak. It is so meticulously shot and planned. Then if you take the bank scene I cannot think of an action scene in any film ever made, that can hold a candle to the sheer realism and intensity of that.

drury..

The directing , action and leads were good

Im a fan of the leads and genre

The story from start to finish was routine/generic for me and not particularly rewatchable

Id rather rewatch their interactions in the Irishman

MisterAnarchy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122856090#Comment_122856090

I was reading that they placed microphones around the set so that the audio could be recorded live during the bank scene.

They used full loads in the gun blanks. Most films use half or quarter loads, which means half or a quarter of the amount of gunpowder in a real bullet. It makes less noise and has less recoil than a real bullet, and is a bit safer. Full loads use the same amount of gunpowder as a real bullet which makes it sound and feel like real gunfire.

It probably wouldnt be allowed nowadays after the Alec Baldwin incident.

drury..

Ya the gunfire was memorable

rednik

Andy McNab of Bravo Two Zero fame was brought in to work with the cast and crew for the firefight scene and the results are obvious, they captured one of the most realistic shootouts ever on screen.

drury..

Sicario is very like heat

Everything well done

Good leads blunt and benicio

Also the tunnel weapons free section

bogmanfan

First half of 1996 was amazing for films released here. I remember seeing each of these in the cinema, back when films here came out months after the US. Every one of these is a classic, but Heat is a level above.

January - Seven

February - Heat

March - Toy Story

April - 12 Monkeys

May - Fargo

June - Mission Impossible

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122865588#Comment_122865588

You got a great run of it alright. I didn't really get Fargo when I first saw it. But on a rewatch many years later, I thought it was very good.

MisterAnarchy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122865588#Comment_122865588

Yes I used to go to the cinema every week back then, always find something worth watching.

A few other classics released that year

Trainspotting

Jerry Maguire

Primal Fear

The Rock

Sleepers

Bound