One tenant is leaving and landlord refuses assignment

BlueBird222

Hello,

One of our housemates wants to move out, and has offered the landlord to find someone to replace him.

The landlord has refused him to be replaced and is now asking us to prove that we'll be able to pay the rent without him.

We think that the landlord is trying to kick us out, because he currently can't as we've been living there more than 6 months now.

What can we do? I saw that when the LL refuses the assignment, we can end the lease, but that's not what we want, because the rest of us still wants to live here.

Thanks for your help.

dennyk

What does your lease say about taking in a licensee? If your lease doesn't prohibit that explicitly, then you can invite a licensee to live in the property (and pay rent for their room to you or your housemates) and the landlord can't stop you. (Also, note that taking in a licensee is not "subletting", so if even your lease prohibits "subletting" by that specific term without the landlord's permission, that doesn't prevent you from taking in a licensee…)

You are also under no obligation to "prove" to the landlord that you can afford to pay the rent, as a sitting tenant; you are only obligated to actually pay the rent. The landlord can end your tenancy eventually if you are in arrears on the rent, but not just because he thinks you won't be able to afford to pay the rent in the future.

BlueBird222

Hey, thanks for your help.

Unfortunately, there's something in our contract that prohibits us from letting someone else live in the apartment..

Good to know that they can't ask us to prove that.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122634531#Comment_122634531

that clause is very probably unenforceable.

SupaCat95

The Land Lord wants to sell the property and needs it vacant for sale. There is no nice way to ask you to vacate with the market being in the state it is in. Its probably too much to ask ye to pay an extra 33% rent plus increased facilities (esb gas bins etc). You either need to lawyer up or plan to rent elsewhere.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635527#Comment_122635527

That clause is perfectly enforceable. There is an obligation to tell the landlord the name of everyone resident in the apartment. If you tell the landlord he can issue a warning letter to direct you to remove that person failing which he will terminate the tenancy.

ted1

was the place let as one unit and you divide the rent yourselfs. If so then the person moving needs to be held accountable. He needs to learn you just can’t back out if contracts where you are a joint party

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122636746#Comment_122636746

Based on the facts as presented, the landlord is confecting a situation to force their departure. This is not a circumstance where they are seeking to introduce an additional resident merely to replace one who is departing. There is a lack of parity of arms in a contract which would not permit the other resident to be replaced. A tenant can bring in a licence (not a sublet or an assignment) generally without the landlord’s consent - even the Irish Property Owners Assiciation recognises this. Where it is to replace a departing resident and to mitigate against the prospect if an ability to pay rent, a case could be asserted that the landlord was impinging on the tenant’s right to quiet enjoyment if the property as forcing the remaining residents to supplement the rent without increasing the burden on the landlord would be a substantial interference by the landlord in the tenants’ ability to continue to occupy the property.

ec18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058369664/one-tenant-is-leaving-and-landlord-refuses-assignment

Your statement that he can't kick you out because you have been there 6 months is incorrect. The notice periods for termination differ before and after 6 months he can still serve you notice to leave.

From the landlord perspective he probably doesn't want the hassle of having reassigned leases going on?

ittakestwo

Sorry to hijack tread but can a landlord put in lease that property is only for a certain no.of people to live there and it to be legal.

We were in this situation where a tenant tried to move her boyfriend in and the we pointed to the terms of lease saying the property can only have 3 individuals living there. Was that legal? If not is there anyway a landloed can restrict the property to a certain no.?

dennyk

There is no legal entitlement for a tenant to bring in a licensee or invite anyone else to live in the property with them, so a tenancy agreement can prohibit taking in a licensee or allowing anyone else to occupy the property who isn't on the lease. If the tenancy agreement says nothing about it, the landlord has no legal right to prevent it, but since the law also doesn't grant that entitlement to the tenant, it can be prohibited by the tenancy agreement.

advisemerite

You probably can't sublet Subject to lease details but you can take in a licensee.

scrabtom

I would advise giving Threshold a call

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649505#Comment_122649505

The landlord has to be told who is living in the dwelling. There are issues with a licensee if the landlord knows about it.

FunkyChicken24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122634126#Comment_122634126

Hi there,

I have only just learned about this difference, unfortunately too late to stop us from losing a house we thought we were going to sign the lease on yesterday 😫 because he got spooked when we asked to be permitted to sublet one of the rooms. Despite us explaining how it would work he was not happy and claims he is now going to sell instead.

I would be super grateful if you could give me a bit more detail please, and if possible, a reputable source to back up what you are saying regarding the legalities of whether or not we would have to tell them in advance that we plan to rent out the other room etc.

Thank you so much 😊

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122662627#Comment_122662627

a licencee can me made a tenant after 6 months, and the landlord can’t say no. So many landlords would be against it.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122662627#Comment_122662627

https://revisedacts.lawreform.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/16/revised/en/html

Look at sub clause (n) in the ACT. The tenant is obliged to notify the landlord of the identity of every person ordinarily resident in the dwelling.

If someone simply springs up and says they have been there for 6 months and want to be a tenant, the landlord can demand to know why they weren't told and want the situation rectified.

FunkyChicken24

Thank you for that. However, letting the landlord know the identity of the people living there is not the same as saying that you have to ask permission in advance for the person to move in.

So, the question is, can the tenant allow a licensee to move in and then inform the landlord when they have moved in and give them the details of their identity?

Also, that clause says "(n) notify in writing the landlord of the identity of each person (other than a multiple tenant) who, for the time being, resides ordinarily in the dwelling", what does multiple tenant mean in this context do you think?

Honestly, I am not sure why a landlord would have a problem with the tenant allowing someone else to move into one of the rooms? If the landlord trusts the tenants who signed the lease to live there then surely the landlord can recognise that these tenants aren't going to let someone live there that they themselves cannot live with, so they won't allow someone to continue living with them who doesn't take care of the home and behave in ways that are prescribed in the lease, not least because surely the tenants are still obliged to fulfill their obligations so they will need to police the licensee. It just smacks of a paternalistic and infantilising attitude towards tenants without much logic or basic respect. If the landlord doesn't trust the tenants to make good choices about the people they have to live with them or to resolve the issue if one turns out to not be suitable, then why are they renting to those people in the first place?

FunkyChicken24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122663186#Comment_122663186

I think most tenants who are renting out a room to a licensee would probably not want to make them a tenant as it is too hard to get them out if things go wrong. It is one thing wanting to get tenants out if you don't like them but it is another thing if they are living with you, you need to be able to get someone out if they live in your home if they turn out to be a dick so I don't think the landlords should worry too much about that.

Also, even if they are made a full tenant, they still have to abide by the terms of the original lease so I'm not sure what the problem is?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122669688#Comment_122669688

after 6 months a licence has to become a tenant if they ask.

A licencee to a tenant is the tenants problem

Once they become a tenant they become the landlords issue

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122669653#Comment_122669653

If there is a clause in your contract forbidding subletting or sharing possession (which is a standard clause in residential leases) then you will be telling the landlord you have broken your contract. The landlord can then warn you that if you don't remove your licencee he will terminate the tenancy.

The landlord will have his own views on whether he wants a new occupant in one of the rooms. It is none of your business. The contract you negotiated means the landlord has the right to decide. It is a convenient way for a landlord to end a tenancy if they are minded to by finding a breach of tenant obligations and terminating.

FunkyChicken24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122670323#Comment_122670323

Except, they don't have to be a problem. Why is there this assumption that they would be a problem? I fthey are paying the rent and behaving themselves and abiding by the lease then they are surely not a problem?

I'm not sure that it is true that the licensee has the right to become a tenant after 6 months, they can ask but I am not sure that they get to just be a tenant against the wishes of the tenants on the lease?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672402#Comment_122672402

they absolutely do get to be a tenant after 6 months.
see renting from a tenant :

https://threshold.ie/faq/i-am-a-tenant/#:~:text=If%20you%20are%20renting%20a,as%20the%20existing%20tenant%2Fs.

They can be a problem. E.g if the original tenants decide to move out. The licences would also have to move. However a tenant will stay. So getting possession back is harder

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672402#Comment_122672402

The problem from the landlords point of view is that the notice period in a multi occupant house starts when the first tenant moves in. By allowing in replacement tenants that new tenant gets the benefit of the notice period accrued by the existing tenants. landlords like to recover vacant possession every few years to keep the notice periods as low as possible.

Landlords will also have references for the original tenants but won't have them for licencees.

Landlords don't like tenants who tell them how to run their business either.
the landlord sees an opportunity to get rid of you and is snatching it with both hands.
Life is short, move on!

FunkyChicken24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673026#Comment_122673026

Seems like a very short sighted way of operating a business. As someone who has been renting from our landlord for the last 15 years, I can tell you that he has benefitted from not having any vacancies during that whole time, nor any expenses associated with having to redecorate or buy new furniture, or clean the house or pay agents etc etc.

We have been renting out the other room to various people over the last few years and our landlord didn't have to do anything with them, never even met them and was totally happy with that as long as he got his rent. We asked them for references, and it was on us as we were the ones who had to live with them and who were responsible for the full rent if they they didn't pay and responsible for any damage or disturbance they might cause while there. We were able to ask them to leave the odd time things went badly. None of them ever asked to be a full tenant, we wouldn't have agreed to it as it was our house, our home.

Landlords may not like people telling them how to run their business however just like other businesses, they might find that it actually makes good business sense to consider the needs, desires and feedback of the customer. If one has an excellent customer then perhaps it is worth it to them to drop the bluster and ego and compromise and actually provide some good customer service. Seems like lots more work and hassle to do things the way you describe.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673144#Comment_122673144

if the bad ones were there for 6 months you can ask them to leave… but they could just request to become a tenant. And then they can stay.

See the problem

Peregrinus

Seems like a very short sighted way of operating a business. As someone who has been renting from our landlord for the last 15 years, I can tell you that he has benefitted from not having any vacancies during that whole time, nor any expenses associated with having to redecorate or buy new furniture, or clean the house or pay agents etc etc

There have been no vacancies over the past 15 years because you have been the tenant the whole time. This would be true whether or not you took licencees in for some or all of that time.

In other words, taking in licensees was primarily for your benefit; it helped you pay the rent. Whether or not you took in a licensee, the landlord was entitled to the full rent from you.

We have been renting out the other room to various people over the last few years and our landlord didn't have to do anything with them, never even met them and was totally happy with that as long as he got his rent. We asked them for references, and it was on us as we were the ones who had to live with them and who were responsible for the full rent if they they didn't pay and responsible for any damage or disturbance they might cause while there. 

And your landlord was happy with that. But other landlords might take the view that they want to be the one who gets to assess prospective occupants, consider whether their references are acceptable, etc.

None of them ever asked to be a full tenant, we wouldn't have agreed to it as it was our house, our home.

They wouldn't be asking you; their right is to become a tenant of the landlord. If they had exercised that right, you wouldn't have any say in the matter. (Meaning, you shouldn't accept as a licensee anyone you wouldn't be happy to have as a co-tenant.)

Landlords may not like people telling them how to run their business however just like other businesses, they might find that it actually makes good business sense to consider the needs, desires and feedback of the customer.

From the landord's point of view, it comes down to balancing competing considerations. On the one hand, risk ending up with a tenant that he would never have accepted. On the other hand, risk having otherwise excellent tenants give notice because they object to the landlord having a veto over licensee arrangements.

Obviously, the choice the landlord will make will be hugely affected by how well he knows you, the existing tenants, and how much he trusts your judgment. I would think for the first couple of times at least the landlord would want to have involvement in, and the final say over, any licensee arrangement. After you have built up a track record of finding satisfactory licensees and ensuring the licensee arrangement goes smoothly, then maybe he'd be happy to back out and let the tenant enter into further licensee arrangements without requiring landlord consent. But at a minimum I think any half-way responsible landlord is going to want to be told about any licensee arrangements, including the identity of the licensee; it's not a good look for a landlord to have no idea who's living in his house.

FunkyChicken24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122674896#Comment_122674896

I think you need to be a bit more granular with your argument, as it isn't as obvious as you seem to think it is. It doesn't appear to be the case that they just need to ask and then they get to stay. I thought I had replied to you on this point before quoting the wording from your link but either it was deleted or somehow I managed to delete it. So I will try again… from your link in your post above "Am I the Tenant?";

"If you are renting a room from one of the existing tenants, you may also be a licensee and the normal landlord and tenant laws also do not apply. After six months, however, you can apply to become a tenant on the same terms and conditions as the existing tenant/s. If the landlord/agent refuses your request to become a tenant you may be able to refer a dispute to the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB) see www.rtb.ie. "

So you can apply to become a tenant but not automatically become one as the landlord/agent can refuse. Presumably, a smart landlord is going to check with the original tenants to see what they think before agreeing.

Also, if they are made a tenant then they are under the same terms and conditions as the original tenants and lease so they can only stay as long as the original tenants stay in my view.

Now presumably if the applicant refers the dispute to the RTB then the landlord has to have a good reason to refuse the applicant but if the original tenants say they don't want the person to stay then I would assume the refusal would be upheld. I don't see a situation where the RTB is about to force people to live with someone they don't like.

FunkyChicken24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122674966#Comment_122674966

I was responding to the line in the post from Claw Hammer; "landlords like to recover vacant possession every few years to keep the notice periods as low as possible" to dispute the idea that landlords like to get rid of people every couple of years to keep notice periods low as I don't see the logic of why they would want to do this when they could have someone there for several years and have no vacancies and associated costs. That was my point.

Although I understand that a landlords decisions will often depend on how much they trust you, however, there seems to be a culture of an automatic lack of trust, even when landlords/agents make you jump through all sorts of hoops, and a lack of general logic applied when dealing with these things too. Especially now that it is a landlords market due to such low supply and exorbitant rents, there seems to be a general air of treating all tenants as if they are untrustworthy children.

Again, if your tenants have to live with the person and also be responsible for any damage or disturbance they create, then they are going to check out this person and police them while they are there. It is pretty simple really. Yeah, sure you might want to be informed about who the person is and have their details on file if you need to pursue them for whatever reason but if you can actually look to the original tenants for reparations for any costs incurred due to that licensee then I can see how that is perhaps less of a need too.

Having said all that, if a landlord wanted to be able to veto any licensee and did so in a reasonable fashion then I wouldn't be averse to that, as long as they don't block me from having a licensee outright and just veto every single one we propose. I think if you are allowed to rent out a room in your own home then you should be allowed to rent out a room in your own rented home.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122675035#Comment_122675035

The landlord is not allowed to refuse unless he has a damn good reason for it. Which they don’t.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122675808#Comment_122675808

There is no requirement for a landlord to have a good reason. There is no veto in the case of existing tenants. If a tenant takes in a licensee and the licensee is there 6 months they can't prevent the landlord accepting that licensee as a tenant.

The o/p has been there 15 years.

The property is likely rent capped. The landlord may well want to take the opportunity to break the rent cap. It is the landlords call, not the o/ps.