Amazon WFH Policy

HurlingBoy

See reports today that Amazon are mandating workers back to offices 5 days a week. They have a 3 day week policy currently but cited compliance to this as a reason. Hopefully this is not a trend that other companies will follow. I think one of the main problem is that some people will not comply and then these drastic measures are taken impacting everyone. Surely if companies are monitoring office attendance they should allow so many WFH days per month e.g 7 days per month to office flexibility but everyone is treated the same. If you know want to use the days you lose them. It can be demoralising if some workers are never in the office but others are.

BlueSkyDreams

Working in the office 5 days a week isnt a drastic measure. It was the norm up until very recently.

Its up to the employer to decide if they want their staff in the office.

spark_tank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631047#Comment_122631047

It's a failure to adapt to evolving work trends that emphasise flexibility and employee well-being.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631192#Comment_122631192

Thats one opinion, sure.

When all is said and done, the employer pays the wages and if the contract states office work, then office work it shall be.

People are free to move to other roles if they dont like the contract they signed.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631192#Comment_122631192

I wouldn't say trends are evolving, just they changed during COVID and now they're changing back.

You can guarantee Amazon has ran the numbers and the pros outweigh the cons.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631236#Comment_122631236

but people are creatures of habit, routine and familiarity. Months and months and months of wfh took over for many people. And naturally a resistance to change (for a lot of people) to back to office will present itself

Buddy Bubs

2 people that work with me that have been WFH are now very awkward around everyone on the odd day they come in. Teamwork has been lost completely in 1 department. These people have lost social skills, they're not leaving their houses.

There's defo an argument for getting people back

apkmbarry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631248#Comment_122631248

Probably realise everyone around them is incompetent and they can't believe they have to work with them. I've only recently started WFH having been in the office every day, and the relief of the one day around the above mentioned people has worked WONDERS on my mentals.

Royale with Cheese

WFH is going nowhere. I would prioritise having minimum 3 days a week from home over any sizeable pay increase, if my employer mandated 5 days a week back in the office I would be looking for a new job immediately. Amazon obviously think the labour market is in their favour and they can get away with this right now but the minute it changes people will be leaving in their droves. Talented staff who would previously be attracted solely by a high salary and maybe interesting workload will now be highly prioritising WFH and flexibility there. I work in tech and wouldn't be queuing up for a job in Amazon regardless.

walshb

Any workers with real talent and options who really love wfh who are being asked to return full time to office will surely be looking elsewhere. And rightly so

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631293#Comment_122631293

And thats ok. There will be plenty of others that will work directly with their teams in the office.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631246#Comment_122631246

Yeah, no doubt, just like WFH was completely alien for most people 4 years ago. People will quickly adapt and those who don't want to change will find other jobs.

Worst case it's a return to what was normal up to 4 years ago. I think more US companies are moving towards full time office or hybrid and Irish companies will follow.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631236#Comment_122631236

This is Amazon the company where it's staff use bottles for toilet breaks, and the staff have been trying to create unions to improve their working conditions. The company using Pips and layoffs to reduce numbers.

https://fortune.com/2024/03/20/amazon-layoffs-performance-review-tech-human-resources-andy-jassy/

"…a practice known as “quiet firing.” If companies can create conditions that make some employees leave the company, they are likely to save money on severance costs. The risks of such a strategy are that talented employees may be pushed out of the company rather than offered the necessary coaching to thrive…"

Removing remote working is just another tactic of quiet firing to reduce headcount. It's got nothing to do with the pros and cons of anything.

HurlingBoy

a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631248#Comment_122631248

Agreed that WFH full time is not good for people. Introverts get more introverted which is not good for them or their co workers. They may be more productive in their comfort zone of not having to meet people but this is not good for their mental health. People can become very inclusive if not getting out on a daily basis. While there are alot of positives in terms of well being WFH has negatives too. Their is no doubt that companies like Amazon are trying to force positive attrition and reduce headcount but they will find it difficult to attract staff in future. These companies obviously feel their reputation and other benefits will outweigh not providing flexibility.

spark_tank

I’m pretty sure future generations will look back, laugh, and seriously wonder what in the everloving f**k people were thinking when they claimed it was NOT GOOD for people to spend less time commuting and working in offices for giant corporations.

Tefral

My guess its just a way of reducing numbers without paying redundancies….

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632266#Comment_122632266

It is, but I presume we're talking about Amazon desk jobs which were previously WFH and hybrid. Seems your link and most of your post is related to warehouse jobs and conditions

boardsdotie44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632266#Comment_122632266

And how about that other Amercian t**t:

https://fortune.com/europe/2024/08/14/x-ordered-to-pay-550000-to-irish-employee-fired-for-not-replying-to-elon-musk-yes-or-resign-extremely-hardcore-ultimatum/

American companies are horrendous places to work, they have zero respect for employees..

flas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631248#Comment_122631248

For most people the relief of not having to spend time with the people in the office who's only social outlet is going to work drags on them! I have a social life, I see friends and family and get to spend more time with them than I ever did when I was stuck in an office with a bunch of annoying weirdos who spend there whole time interrupting and annoying everyone...the vast majority are more productive at home, happier and have more time not spent commuting, more money from lack of commuting also.

ELM327

This is planned attrition acceleration, nothing more and nothing less.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632959#Comment_122632959

If that's what all your colleagues are like, I think you need to find another job where you are a better fit.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632827#Comment_122632827

I think the layoffs are across the board. It's just poorly reported.

I think relying Amazon's information is misguided.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/10/amazon-ai-cashier-less-shops-humans-technology

RebelButtMunch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633007#Comment_122633007

Agreed, it's downside in this regard is it's not targeted, so it could be random who decides to walk away

skinny90

Its a clear out and out tactic to cut labor costs without paying people to leave.

Its nothing to do with compliance. and yes i suspect many (mainly US based) companies will catch on..

Amazon as an IT company pays considerably high wages for people in the IT sector.

Rather than paying out redundancies its going to push people out.

callaway92

Some absolute losers and weirdos in this thread

‘Most people didn’t even know of WFH before Covid’ etc

Yes.. and who gives a flying fúck? They know about it now and it’s probably enhancing lives for the majority that have WFH access now

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632597#Comment_122632597

I'm not sure Amazon with all its issues is going to be that focused on its introverted staff mental health and wellbeing. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632909#Comment_122632909

American companies top the polls as the best places to work in Ireland. Pfizer got it this year, and a little under half the top 20 are American. American companies in Ireland pay higher wages and better working conditions than Irish companies. I can post link if you want, but about 10% of the Irish workforce are employed in MNCs and those 10% are receiving 33% of the total wages paid.

Even your article shows that one US company has to pay half a million quid to a manager for not replying to an email. Hardly horrendous and hardly representative of all American companies.

Oscar_Madison

One large irish company had all their staff back full time as soon as restrictions lifted -have to say felt for the staff - for me that’s one of the exceptions for large companies here in Ireland where the nature of your work doesn’t necessitate you having to be present in the office.

Presentism is my big bug bear - being there because someone said had to be there.

Fine if people are asked to meet regularly in the office - say once a week or whatever- but 5 days a week for no other reason than power and control - nah.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633173#Comment_122633173

No one is being weird, but your employer tells you where to work. It's one of the legal conditions of your employment. They're entitled to tell you to return to the office, and you're entitled to tell them to stuff it and then find another job.

WFH was forced on us in extreme times, that's whether you're in favour or against it, so returning to the office is a return to normality.

People called life during COVID "the new normal". WFH was part of that, but so was paying €7 for a meal so you could buy a pint, and wearing masks in shops. We've stopped all the other behaviour, why are we surprised this is stopping too?

CramCycle

My son in laws company done the same recently. He said no, he was getting his work done and while he did go to the office occasionally, he was exceeding all his targets. Funnily enough, they never done anything, he got his bonus and well, that is that. This stunt is someone half way up justifying the stupid rent they paid to someone else. Happens all the time, hopefully the good people will either go elsewhere and be appreciated.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633306#Comment_122633306

Whatever about Amazon US, in Ireland employees now have the right to request remote work and the employer has to have a solid reason to refuse it.

Amazon (or any US company) in Ireland has to comply with Irish employment law. If Amazon want to order all their employees here back to an office 5 days a week, they will need more than "we pay your wages" to do so.

If someone has been working away remotely with no issue and is suddenly ordered back to an office full time for no other reason than "change of policy" they could take the employer to the WRC.

darklighter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633378#Comment_122633378

They dont though….all they have to do is show that they "considered" the request, and once they do that in line with whatever policies & procedures they have around that request, they can refuse away to their hearts content

Which is exactly how the government intended the 'right to request' to work……they were never going to mandate big firms to have to come up with reasons against people WFH

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633402#Comment_122633402

Then it is open to be challenged. They have to show a bit more than "we considered it".

HurlingBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633373#Comment_122633373

That is the problem for employers. The strong performer can get their work done regardless of where they are. However the weak performer cannot be trusted but companies can't be seen to allow the strong performer work from home and the weak performer work in the office. Unfortunately everyone pays the price then and all get mandated back to the office.

Qaanaaq

It depends a lot on the individual country. Ireland has a much higher WFH percentage than a lot of other countries. Part of that reason is that it has been endorsed by the government as being a good thing for country in general. Remember the stories from years ago with people having to commute to Dublin 5 days per week. Spending more than a mortgage on childcare 5 days per week. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

Sure some American companies will try and force change and that will work in certain jurisdictions, but ultimately they will be a less attractive employer in the marketplace but it's their decision. Amazon seems to be regarded as having a terrible work culture anyway.

Hybrid WFH in Ireland is here to stay.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633414#Comment_122633414

A good employer though could sort it easily through a range of measures, rather than this half arsed, all in together plan. As an employer, if the work isn't getting done, you don't have to sit there and tolerate it just because they are working from home, the rules still apply.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633412#Comment_122633412

They really don't as recent case demonstrated. It's a toothless showboating bit of legislation..

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633306#Comment_122633306

Remote working existed before COVID. Have done it on and off most of my working life.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633412#Comment_122633412

not really, taking a case to the WRC would be a monumental waste of everyones time.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632792#Comment_122632792

or they will look back and wonder what were people thinking when they claimed working alone in isolation for weeks on end was good for work place morale and peoples mental health.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633433#Comment_122633433

I don't think it's the govt. I've worked remotely long before COVID. I'd argue its more the concentration of tech companies and such. Also a lot of multi national companies. Where you're working with teams internationally. Also Ireland doesn't have that corporate culture mindset that you see in Japan or America.

HurlingBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633447#Comment_122633447

I agree a good employer should have an strong review system where individuals are rewarded based on their productivity regardless of where they are but alot of companies struggle with this. You always know the office worker who is always ringing in sick or has some excuse to WFH. Is a manager going to tell this worker you cannot wfh i.e I don't trust you or wait for company to apply a blanket policy that punishes everyone?

Mark Hamill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633306#Comment_122633306

Because it is an undeniable positive improvement both for employee well-being and happiness and for work efficiency and productivity.

It doesn't matter that people got it all of a sudden only recently, do you think a CEO would get very far in a shareholder meeting if they said "Yes, we did have a bumper year of profit in 2023, but we should aim to return to the normality of previous 5 years when we in the red"?

Removing WFH is for only two reasons - either quiet firing (as others have said in the thread) or because management hate having happy employees they can't control every minute of the work day (and outside of it):

https://youtu.be/c8vpHmHlii8?si=wimy2hZ6aQVgBB-Y

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631047#Comment_122631047

a lot has changed in that very recently.

employees should vote with their feet but i find they tend not to , fear of changes means so many Irish stay long term in jobs/orgs they hate.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633775#Comment_122633775

I would be the type who says if you are going to work from home because you are sick, but your job requires you to work on site, that I would tell you no, this is a sick day, do not work, recover, go to a doctor if necessary but you are sick, that is it, this is one of your sick days.

Yes, there are some jobs where you can work while sick from home, and that is fine, but if you are sick enough you cannot do the job comptently, then no, it is a sick day, that is it.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633796#Comment_122633796

Well they are entitled to vote with their feet and move companies. At the end of the day, employees dont have a right to work from home though.

Unless its in your contract, it isn't a right.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633778#Comment_122633778

Funny enough, I've never seen a proper metric that shows WFH increases profits.

spark_tank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633750#Comment_122633750

If your solution to social challenges is spending most of your life with people you don't get to choose in a place you have to commute to, then I feel for you. It's not healthy. And it absolutely became an issue during Covid because so many people realised that due to working so much they didn't and hadn't been making time for healthy relationships and social groups. The right solution is not returning to a workplace for most of the week.

Give me more time at home with family, enjoying meals together, and having extra time and energy for social clubs and friends. I get on very well with colleagues and can easily call or video call them and meet in the office once a week and for nights out etc..

ec18

depending on the location in the US there are tax breaks for companies the more they use their offices

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633879#Comment_122633879

That's interesting.

Dublinflyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633190#Comment_122633190

I have worked for US companies most of my working life, almost 30 years, and I can tell you the only reason they are the best places to work in Ireland is that we have all the protection of labour laws on our side. If US complanies treated their Irish staff the same as those located in the US the polls would be reversed. I am not disagreeing with you, but the context of how we are protected is important. We do have the best of both worlds with a lot of these companies, we get all the perks of the US without the constant fear of getting called to a meeting on a Friday and told this is your last day without any real reason.