Farming payment arrangement

BullBauld

So I have circa 35 acres that belonged to my late father. He would have kept dry stock and I've continued that on.

We never had a tractor so our neighbour would make the silage and put out bales and do the few jobs that required heavy machinery for payment. That evolved to him taking part payment by making hay from one of the fields...maybe19/20 bales.

The last couple of years that has extended to a few more fields with another 60/70 bales of hay.

So basically the question is what's that worth to me. He makes my silage (20 bales) and puts them out in the winter while he makes and takes away approx. 80/90 bales of hay.

Are we even? Should I be getting a few euros off of him? If so what's fair per bale.

Any suggestions or questions appreciated.

Sugarbowl

without doing too much calculation it feels like the neighbour is getting the better end of the stick in my eyes anyway

mr.stonewall

A rough back of the fag box calculation is its costing €20-25 to make a bale of silage including cutting wrapping and hauling so take your bales at a rough cost of €400-500. The feeding out of the bales would be maybe twice a week for 10 mins. Don't forget to add in time for travel to and fro so if it's approx 20-30 mins twice a week for say 16 weeks giving around 12 hours. Min hourly rate for any tractor work would be €50/ hour. Put the total together and you are around the 1k mark

Now let's look at the other side of the ledger. Hay is freely trading at €40/bale for a total of 70 bales is €2800. Now the cost of that hay. I'm taking as a 10 acre field. Cut the field would be €300 at €30/ac. Tedding 4 runs at €15/ac would have another €600. Now baling cost of baling here is 8/bale so that's €560. Hauling of bales another 2/bale and if storing them in a shed another 2-3/ bale, so €350. Leaving you with a hay cost of €1810. Sub this off the €2800 and it leaves a profit of €990 to cover your baling and feeding .

The above is assumed in him mowing and supplying the wrap. Add in a bad year like this year hay is hard got or a good year where the price of hay plummets due to so much hay around

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595126#Comment_122595126

i was thinking the same so I had run a rough cost. My eyes were opened with it

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595173#Comment_122595173

I read it that the neighbour is merely coordinating the making of the silage and the OP is picking up the bill for baling/wrap/ etc.

@BullBauld might clarify

893bet

or who is paying for the fertiliser?

BullBauld

They bale and provide wrap and I'm billed for all then.

Putting out of bales is about 1 bale per week, usually when he's passing the door as his farm is just beside mine.

The11Duff

How did the arrangement end up being more ground than originally agreed.

You could ask him to cut it back or buy your own tractor

K.G.

Is the arrangement working well.if it is I d be slow to go messing around too much over a few pound.you could take back some land to Balance up but are you then trying to sell hay.in the overall scheme of thing s the money being discussed is relatively tidy and then value hay at 25 to 30 euros which it often is most years and the numbers change a good bit.

Kevhog1988

If i was you op id buy my own tractor and get a contractor to make the bales. Maybe your neighbour is sound but it seems odd that he is increasing the acreage he makes hay off without prior approval

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596298#Comment_122596298

does this neighbour farmer have a baler? Who bills you “for all” and what is “all”?

Are you paying for everything? And the neighbours takes the free hay and feeds out a couple of bales of silage is my reading?

You are not giving enough info but it feels like you are getting taken for a ride.

1. Who pays for any fertiliser spread on your silage or the hay the neighbour takes.
2. Who pays (or does) or the cutting of the silage and hay?
3. Who pays for the turning and baling of the silage and hay?
4. Who does and pays for the spreading of the slurry/dung from the cattle you over winter?

BullBauld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596467#Comment_122596467

I had less stock then past few years so was using a field or 2 less. The arrangements are all fairly loose.

BullBauld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596691#Comment_122596691

Yea I don't want to cause any bother or fall out over a few euros but don't want to be taken for a ride either (not saying that's happening)

Sacrolyte

just buy more stock next year. Problem sorted.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122598051#Comment_122598051

And a tractor

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596298#Comment_122596298

I must be misreading this...is the neighbour charging you for baling and wrapping bales that he is taking out of the place? 20 in previous years and an extra 60/70 more recently so we'll say 90 this year?

Obviously I don't know, but I would have thought your dad would cut a deal with the neighbour that he takes 20 bales, doesn't charge for those 20 but in return throws in a few bales over the winter. That sounds fair enough to me and actually more of a good deal for your father.

C0N0R

I think the key thing that’s missing here is figures - round bales of hay, square bales, what’s he charging for making the bales, who’s paying for what with fertiliser etc etc, making any assumptions the neighbour is a robbing prick or not is impossible without details.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122602233#Comment_122602233

I asked twice above. Devil is in the detail.

BullBauld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596999#Comment_122596999

1. I pay for fertilizer for my silage. None spread for the hay that neighbour takes.

2. I pay for my silage that's cut by my neighbour/his son. They incur the costs of cutting the hay they take away.

3. Same as no. 2.

4. None spread.

BullBauld

@jeffkenna No he/his son incur the costs of hay they make and take away. I pay for silage made that I keep and feed to my stock.

BullBauld

@CONOR My neighbour/his son cut and make my round bales of silage, approx 20 bales and I incur all the costs, cutting, baling, wrap.

They make 80 - 90 round bales of hay and they incur the cost of cutting and baling and take them away.

tabby aspreme

It seems like the neighbour gets the grass for 80-90 bales, for putting 20 bales in front of the cattle over winter, those 20 bales the OP has paid for in full.

epfff

So to put money on this.

80/90 bales of unfertilized grass standing is worth ball park 7/900 euro.

He is charging you ball park 40 per bale (800/20) for whatever he does with your silage.

Local contractor will cut rake bale stack in yard for 14 per bale you supply plastic @approx 3 euro if that is any help to you figuring out how much he gets for stacking in yard.

Few contractors here feed silage for smaller operations and I think it's usually thrown in for getting baling/topping etc during year.

If silage near yard I'd be thinking he should get 2/3 a bale to stack after making and at most 10 every time he has to travel to give out bale.

Have I just too much money that I would do stuff like this for neighbors and be insulted if they offered me anything more than a drink when we meet at wedding or Xmas or something like that?

PoorFarmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122603948#Comment_122603948

€10 to feed each bale is a bit light I'd say. You'd want at least twice that if there was any bit of a journey on the road involved. From the information from the OP the cattle are out-wintered as he says there is no slurry/dung. That means possibly tearing through a field with the tractor and bringing all shades of shite out around the road afterwards. Taking off plastic in the field cos you couldn't trust a bale to stay together with just the net in those conditions. That means dragging shite in and around the floor of the tractor also. No tenner worth that lad.

minerleague

I think the original arrangements of neighbour taking 20 bales of hay for feeding cattle over the winter is probably just about alright ( considering OP would have to pay contractor or buy a tractor otherwise) The problem with these loose arrangements is when circumstances change we ( Irish people anyway ) don't like to make a fuss ( tis grand sure!) but it nearly always ends up with 1 party feeling hard-done by especially if they don't like to say anything. Neighbour may even feel he is doing a favour by cleaning up extra grass! As said, unless you break from neighbour completely ( have contractor make and draw in silage early next year before neighbour does it ) buy a few extra cattle to go back to way it was

grass10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368154/farming-payment-arrangement

I might be reading this wrong but is the few cattle you keep only on the farm to keep min stocking density so you can draw down your EU payments each year and you realistically are not really doing any actual farming as you don't even have a tractor so your neighbours are actually doing any farm work that's being done and in return they are making hay and taking the hay to feed their own animals if this is broadly the story you are very lucky to have people to come to your farm to spread fertiliser, make and draw in your silage, feed your cattle and probably many other jobsI don't think you would want to upset the arrangement if you want to continue farming in your own right or else it might be just simpler to let your land property to either this neighbour or someone else

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122604897#Comment_122604897

But he is paying full cost for his silage

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122604908#Comment_122604908

Is money changing hands for his silage or is he paying in bales taken away.

The OP says it started in part payment, I could see an arrangement where no money might be changing hands between the neighbours.

BullBauld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122604940#Comment_122604940

I pay in full for the cutting, baling and wrapping of my 20 bales of silage.

I was actually talking to him a while ago and I broached the subject, he clarified his views on the arrangement.

So he cuts and takes approx 80 bales of hay (not the best quality apparently!) and in return I get my 20 bales of silage put out over the winter. We're even in his eyes. That's it.

He's been at it for us donkeys years and I don't want to cause any bother. So there's has been an element of 'let him at it's on my part. I just want to know is the whole arrangement fair for both parties or do I need to make changes going forward.

BullBauld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122604897#Comment_122604897

They get paid cash to make my silage, they're it doing it for free.

The only other farm work they have to do is put out my bales in winter....about 20.

As I said he's at it a long time, and I appreciate the time and effort. I just want an arrangement that's fair for both sides.

K.G.

IN my view you are not doing too bad given the set of circumstances and the likely hood of finding better arrangements .it doesn't sound like either he or you !I'll be become a millionaire out of the scenario but that is based on that I ve read here.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122603121#Comment_122603121

I've read the rest of your comments and to be honest I don't think your doing that bad. You probably know yourself it's very difficult to get anybody to do jobs now a days so you're lucky enough to have him when you don't have any equipment yourself.

BullBauld

Thanks for the comments and feedback everyone. All taken on board.

grass10

IN a fairness if all that is being produced on 35 acres is 100 bales and keeping a few cattle the farming is only hobby farming and what is referred to as hay is probably very poor quality because if their is no fertiliser going on the hay land their is usually more weeds than grass in it so your neighbours are actually doing you a big favour in cleaning up the land and taking away this hay if you look on done deal it's full of ads with hay/rushes for 10 euro a bale them lads are losing a lot of money in making this so called hay so you have to realise you are doing very well with the arrangement you have if 35 acres of reasonable land were used productively you could have 875 bales per year of better quality feed

whelan2

Bought some round bales of hay today €40 delivered, good enough stuff

TalkingBull

buy a tractor or sell the cattle for the winter!!

kerryjack

I don't like this arrangement much to be honest I would sell cattle for a year or 2 and do up a proper lease for the lot and offer him first refusal at market rates if he wants it, just to break that cycle.

Sacrolyte

out of interest how much are you paying for the 20 bales to be made?