"God heals" better than insulin - 8 year old murdered by father.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/sep/06/elizabeth-struhs-murder-trial-the-saints-religious-sect-ntwnfb

Very disturbing story here from Australia here.

A father converted to his wife's faith, and begun to withdraw their daughters insulin as "God heals".

The poor child suffered and died, and now the father and other members of the sect are in court for murder.

They're claiming religious persecution as they fervently believe that the child is only sleeping. The sect have not entered a plea as they refuse to see it as murder.

One would assume they'll obviously be found guilty as they freely admit withholding the insulin.

But is this where we end up with complete religious freedom? What's more important, the laws of the land, the laws of the here and now? Or the laws of your religion, the laws of the afterlife? One is arguably more permanent than the other.

Such a mad, sad story.

Backstreet Moyes

Life would be better if religion had no place in it.

Horrible heartbreaking story.

amacca

How can anyone believe something so strongly they withdraw the the thing that's keeping their own child alive...and watch them die and then believe they are sleeping

It's just something I find hard to get my head around.....is there even a small part of them buried deep in their subconscious that has a doubt.....I could perhaps understand not wanting to face reality after such a tradgedy had happened and having a psychotic break or something.....but how can you be so convinced beforehand....

Just cannot wrap my head around it....

ancapailldorcha

Poor child. What a vile thing to do.

Laws of religion should only ever be applied by the faithful up to and excluding the point where they affect the liberty of others. That said, there must be something more here since the overwhelming majority of religious people wouldn't have an issue with themselves or anyone else taking insulin.

CramCycle

Someones memory might be better than mine but there was a crowd in Donnybrook Dublin with the same view 20 years ago. No one died but I thought a medical team and the courts had to intervene.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368002/god-heals-better-than-insulin-8-year-old-murdered-by-father

Not so mad. In America Christian Scientists preach the same thing. They even have Christian Science 'hospitals' covered by medical insurance which basically 'treat' sick people with prayer. Val Kilmer is a Christian Scientist and when he developed throat cancer originally went down this course. Eventually his wife persuaded him to undergo conventional therapy but he still credits the Christian Science part as what cured him. It's long been known that young children of Christian Scientists often die of routine childhood illness due to failure to use antibiotics, and in some parts of America this is not illegal.

https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/flashbks/xsci/suffer.htm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/06/christian-science-church-medicine-death-horror-of-my-fathers-last-days

TinyMuffin

thoughts and prayers.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591122#Comment_122591122

I think they may have been Jehovahs witnesses. They will refuse blood donations and marrow transplants. In Ireland doctors can legally intervene on behalf of children, but must respect the wishes of adults, which can make it more difficult to treat patients with life threatening anaemia (say as a result of cancer).

Hardly much different to jehovas witnesses refusing blood transfusions

Religion is bonkers

Akrasia

Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes refuse blood transfusions and the courts rightfully intervene when there are children involved but not always

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42002996

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591083#Comment_122591083

The next stage of Human evolution, when we stop allowing makey up things in the sky or in dusty books decide what happens on the ground.

Pity none of us will be around for it.

Boggles

Did God not give the people free will to become scientists and invent insulin injections?

The group spent the last day of the trial giving individual closing statements, arguing that they were entitled to their religious belief that Elizabeth would be resurrected and therefore they cannot be convicted of her murder or manslaughter, because she is “only sleeping”.

Oh do fúck all the way off ye vile scum.

Gregor Samsa

If religion didn't exist, people like this would just believe in something else that they would claim works better than regular medicine: aliens, magic, "energy", whatever. I've a friend who's an atheist (like myself), but fervently believes in homeopathy. She literally gives her children water instead of medicine. It's only luck that means that her belief in its efficacy hasn't yet been tested against a fatal condition.

The religious persecution defence is a bit of a red herring in this story. Sure, there claiming it, but there's no way it will work. Courts across the globe have consistently ruled against Jehovah's Witness parents on withholding blood transfusions from their children. In any western democracy, your religious belief - protected to the extent that it is - isn't a "get out of jail free" card in matters like this.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591149#Comment_122591149

The cases in that story you linked to were both adults (ages 27 and 46) who refused blood transfusions for themselves, not their children.

rowantree18

When oh when are people going to realise that we evolved religion to explain things in the natural world which at the time, we couldn't. Your religion is an accident of geography and chronology - you have religion based on when and where you were born. Had I been born in Ireland 1500 years ago I'd be a pagan believing in various gods and goddesses. Christianity set in because Constantine in the 3rd ? century wanted to unite people under one god as it made power easier to obtain....in Europe, Christianity made women less powerful.....

Yet we allow allsorts of things based on beliefs in various sky fairies - and the most dangerous to date is getting firm grasp in the West, and like turkeys for Christmas, we're all out banging that drum.

One eyed Jack

One would assume they'll obviously be found guilty as they freely admit withholding the insulin.

I don’t think that’s obvious Flaneur -

Justice Martin Burns adjourned the case late on Friday, to consider his verdict. He told the 14 accused not to expect a finding of guilty or not guilty this month or next month, because he must reach a verdict for each of the defendants individually.

But is this where we end up with complete religious freedom? What's more important, the laws of the land, the laws of the here and now? Or the laws of your religion, the laws of the afterlife? One is arguably more permanent than the other.

Yes, and there’s no avoiding it, precisely because the same people who believe their religious beliefs are more important or powerful than any laws created by man, or punishments doled out by man, even when they’re faced with the reality of being treated no different to anyone else - then they’ll claim they’re being persecuted for their beliefs, as opposed to being put on trial for murder. It’s an attempted get-out, a distraction from the reality of facing the consequences of their actions. Each and every one of them knows the part they played in causing this tragedy, but the law must be applied fairly and without prejudice, as that’s the only way the law can function or have any legitimacy.

NIMAN

Madness, but when religion gets involved rational thought often goes out the window.

Sure we Irish can be as daft. Whether some think Padre Pio's mitt cured their cancer, rather than the highly trained specialists in the hospital.

Or that all the prayers did, rather than the medically proven medicine they were given.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591332#Comment_122591332

The rational thinking is still there, it’s just the individual who is religious is working off a different foundation for evidence than the individual who is working off a different foundation for evidence is all:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2015/11/05/11-times-god-intervened-directly-in-ben-carsons-life-according-to-ben-carson/

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591150#Comment_122591150

Do you think that will ever happen though in any sort of even long term timespan ?

I remember when I was growing up thinking people had become more rational....peer reviewed research, actual evidence based decisions, more people with access to more information than ever before (at least in this country).....now I'm not so sure....feels more snd more like idiocracy every day to me.

If we don't believe one thing something else has to fill a void for some people

Whether it's believing in extreme left and right wing ideologies or parts thereof

Being Devout disciples of economic theories

Believing seemingly wholeheartedly in odd as **** conspiracy theories easily disproven with the simplest of logical arguments

Believing trump will somehow be better than the other guy....believing then other guy will work miracles

Educational theories applied without any reference to context with devotees that could blind you with lingo but refuse to even contemplate it might just be total guff have countless devotees...usually not working at actual teaching

Believing the sun shines out of some celebrity or influencers arsehole

I think a lot of us must have a need to believe in something ....there must be an evolutionary advantage to it....makes us part of a group I suppose which increases chance of survival.....might take a hell of a long time to evolve out of something so deeply ingrained ....not only not in our lifetime.....eons I'd say

And then I suppose theres a need for detached purely realistic analytic thinkers too...variation in species.....I'd say it will be a long long process and strangely perhaps not desirable for our species as a whole.…..

Unless the computer chips they are going to stick in our heads say No to believing and even worse acting on total horseshit!

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591150#Comment_122591150

The dumbest of all beliefs is people who believe the world and humanity would be better without religion.

satguy

Someone should see the inside of a prison cell.

How can a Dad let his little girl die like that,, ? He needs to pay.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591375#Comment_122591375

Human beings put people on pedestals. It’s a tendency across all human history and in every corner of the world. There are leaders and followers who will believe anything. Regardless of rational thought or scientific evidence. It’s quite the paradox.
charisma , halo effect, whatever it overrides everything else.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591176#Comment_122591176

This is spot on. Look at the likes of Novak Djokovic. Thinks he can cure injuries with his mind, talks to water and thinks he can purify water with his mind.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591560#Comment_122591560

It's really mad though.....I feel like a different species sometimes

I'm sure I believed lots things of things that were wrong...maybe still do from small things like how to pronounce a word to perhaps much bigger things

But when presented with actual real world evidence to the contrary I like to think I'm capable of coming around to another view or opinion (even if slowly)

BBut some of the stuff people insist on to the exclusion of any evidence, rational thought process, argument really makes me scratch my head sometimes....like I said, I feel like somehow even though we are humans they come from a different universe

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591176#Comment_122591176

I attended a hospital appointment with my Mrs recently and was subjected to a theory on both the efficacy & mode of action of homeopathy by someone who whilst not a Dr or Nurse, is senior within the physiotherapy dept and holds an MSc.

Their reasoning as to why homeopathy isn't merely over diluted magic water?

Quantum entanglement 🤦

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591484#Comment_122591484

Why would you say that? Religion is constantly used on the under educated and poor to take advantage of them.

Penn

Well if God told him she's only sleeping and will be resurrected, lock him in a cell with her and he can get out when she wakes up.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591671#Comment_122591671

Physios in Ireland are by and large unqualified, especially compared to those in the US. Most jurisdictions in the US require Masters in Physiotherapy, many hours of overseen experience and board certification. In Ireland, pay for a shingle and hang it out the door and hope you don't screw up.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591762#Comment_122591762

All of them. They were all "praying in the house" while the poor little girl lay dying.

rowantree18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591887#Comment_122591887

Not sure where you're getting that from - Physiotherapists in Ireland have to be registered and have a pin number which they can only get by having a 4 year degree in PT from a recognised university/3rd level institution. Non Irish train physios (outside EU) have to prove their qualifications are up to standard and may have to do additional education/clinical practice. Irish physios can work in the US - and do - as long as they pass the state board exams. Nobody can "hang a shingle" - you might be confusing Physiotherapy with some other complementary therapies, but I assure you Physiotherapists in Ireland are fully qualified, it's one of the highest points on the CAO.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591908#Comment_122591908

PDF https://coru.ie/files-recognition/standards-of-proficiency-for-physiotherapists.pdf

Immortal Starlight

Each and every one of these crazy bastards should be locked up. I hope they don’t have any other children under their supervision.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591156#Comment_122591156

Never seen this defence love to see a killer try this and be torn to shreds in court

Edit: we will in this case

taxAHcruel

Read articles on this type of madness before:

https://time.com/archive/6914048/when-parents-call-god-instead-of-the-doctor/

But definitely the first time I have heard the parents believing the corpse they caused was actually still alive. That's some deep mental illness right there.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591671#Comment_122591671

Ask them why the water doesn't remember all the faeces that's been in it, usually causes them to splutter and bugger off.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591908#Comment_122591908

USA now requires doctorate in physical therapy plus passing exams. Ireland, a bachelor's and off you go. One can tell if you have PT in both places. Much higher quality in the US. A bachelor's from a low ranked school in Ireland is laughable, even TCD is barely in the top 100 worldwide

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591887#Comment_122591887

Do you mean psychotherapy maybe? I don't know about the US, but I'm told that psychotherapists in Ireland don't have to have much in the way of qualifications.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592048#Comment_122592048

So they are qualified then. My niece is doing a 4 year course in college for it. Unless your saying a bachelors degree is not worth the paper it's written on and everyone needs a doctorate to have a qualification

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591375#Comment_122591375

Youve gone off on about 8 tangents there

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591484#Comment_122591484

Yea, because famously religion makes everything better. That fiver you put into the collection box of a sunday allows you feel better about being a **** person all week.

rowantree18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591908#Comment_122591908

"The professional (entry-level) DPT degree is currently the degree conferred by all physical therapist professional programs upon successful completion of a three- to four-year post-baccalaureate degree program in the United States, preparing the graduate to enter the practice of physical therapy"

They are not real phds - they are given the courtesy title doctor of physiotherapy just like medical doctors, who are in actual fact bachelors of medicine, although their course is longer. Whether they're better or not - another argument

Igotadose

The requirement in the US is bachelor's plus 3-4 years additional study.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Physical_Therapy#:~:text=A%20Doctor%20of%20Physical%20Therapy,doctorate%20degree%20for%20professional%20practice.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592047#Comment_122592047

Thats class...I'm storing that one for my next encounter with a homeopath!

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593357#Comment_122593357

Pretty sure thats a Tim Minchin joke.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593436#Comment_122593436

Minchin certainly has a line on it in his beat poem "Storm"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIWj3tI-DXg&

"Water has memory!

And while it's memory of a long lost drop of onion juice seems Infinite

It somehow forgets all the poo it's had in it"

But the idea of how utterly bullshit homeopathy is, and the requirement on people forgetting everything else water hard in it, doesn't require knowing this existed. We're taught the water cycle in primary school.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591699#Comment_122591699

Doesn't everything take advantage of under educated people then? Should we get rid of the legal system too? And political entities will surely have to go.

Is it not very patronising to assume people without what, a third level certificate, have been taken advantage of because they find comfort, solace, and joy in belonging to a religious community? What do you intend on replacing that with when you take it away from them?

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592507#Comment_122592507

You are so blinded by your hatred of religion that you completely missed my point.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592047#Comment_122592047

Or the plastic from the container it sat in.

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368002/god-heals-better-than-insulin-8-year-old-murdered-by-father

Just read the article now, what a bunch of delusional, arrogant pr!cks.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593649#Comment_122593649

ive no hatred of religion, its just a pointless pastime leveraged by those in power to have control over people and profit from them, on one level its a hobby like chess, badminton, equestrian sports and many others that ive no hatred of but no time for either, and on another its a massive pointless waste of time.

Some people take it far to serious,( probably safe to assume you are one of them)are unable to step back and see the issues with it, ignore the massive contradictions in its ‘teachings’ and fully accept everything thats said.

Avatar in the Post

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593646#Comment_122593646

A weak argument. Let them wallow in their delusion?

It’s a sad day when kids find out about Santa and the Easter Bunny etc, but it’d be pathetic for a person to grow into adulthood and still hang up a sock expecting a magical entity is going to fill it.