Leak in new ensuite, should I have to pay to fix it?

Some_randomer

So I have an apartment and recently decided to renovate the main bathroom, and also put an ensuite in the main bedroom as I had a large built in wardrobe space which just about had enough room for one. The bedroom wall with the ensuite backs on to the kitchen, so the corner of the bedroom and the kitchen corner are both close to the main vertical soil stack that each apartment connects to. The first few pics show the kitchen corner with the new pipes that were added for the shower and toilet waste. The other pics show the soil stack from the ensuite side.

The work was finished about 2 weeks ago, and the main bathroom turned out pretty well, however I'm having a pretty major issue with the new ensuite. I was away for a week, so it was only Sunday night this week that the ensuite was used for the first time. The shower and toilet seemed to work fine, but the next morning I noticed water under the floorboards, so obviously this points to a pretty major issue.

The new tiled floor was completely dry so the water seems to be coming from the pipes somewhere behind the walls. In the days since Sunday I noticed that water is coming back up the shower sometimes, and the toilet is occasionally making bubbling noises, like there's air coming back up through it, and the water level in the bowl rises a bit also. Just today I noticed that the water coming back up the shower and the toilet happens when the kitchen tap is running for a couple of minutes, or while the dishwasher is on.

I said all this to the builder today, and his reply is that there are 5 waste pipes all connecting to the main soil stack (kitchen sink, washing machine, dishwasher, new ensuite shower, and new toilet), that's why it's backing up, and that I'd probably need to re-plumb the kitchen stuff and "possibly get another waste pipe out the back wall of the bedroom". He seems pretty nonchalant about it and by his tone I'm thinking he'll expect me to pay for this work. He hasn't come back to look at it yet as he's on holidays.

So this is a major headache and my floorboards are now water damaged. I'd appreciate people's thoughts on this:

- I've forked out a lot of money for the job and now have a blocked ensuite shower and toilet. Surely he should make this right without me paying more?

- Shouldn't he have realised when he first looked at the job that there would be 5 things connecting to the soil stack, and should have known this could be an issue?

- Is his assessment correct, would these 5 things connecting to the main soil stack cause the shower and toilet to back up, or is it another problem? Maybe the work was shoddy and not done properly, and he's using the 5 things as an excuse?

During the work there were a couple of other things I had to pay for, like the new 4-inch pipes came too far into the kitchen which meant the dishwasher in the corner wouldn't fit any more, so the sink had to be moved into the corner and the dishwasher moved to the centre. I had to pay extra for his kitchen fitter and plumber to come and do this. When moving it they cracked the sink, so I had to pay over 300 euro for a new one. I also had to pay for a few other things, like he moved the bedroom door but used the existing architraves which were in bits and just screwed back on, had to pay his carpenter to come and fit new architraves. This is why I'm thinking he may expect me to pay more to get this fixed 😐️

Any thoughts or feedback much appreciated.

existing-kitchen-1.jpg

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kitchen-work-2.jpg

new-kitchen-pipes-1.jpg

ensuite-soil-stack-1.jpg

ensuite-soil-stack-2.jpg

ensuite-soil-stack-3.jpg

ensuite-soil-stack-4.jpg

leinster93

Advise the contractor in writing/email the problem needs to be resolved ASAP and you cannot wait due to the continued damage. It is a problem as a result of the work that was carried out. You can pursue the contractor through the small claims court.

Was it working before the works began?

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/how-to-complain/small-claims-procedure/

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583556#Comment_122583556

Thanks @leinster93, the shower and toilet in the ensuite are new. Before the work took place the kitchen sink, washing machine, and dishwasher were all connected to the main soil stack and were working perfectly fine.

Lenar3556

It’s difficult to get a full understanding without seeing it.

It sounds like the builders case is that he connected to existing pipework, and either this pipework is inadequate or there is some defect downstream. More would need to be understood about the particular situation and the nature of the engagement between you and the builder before it would be clear as to whether that is reasonable or not. Although my initial view is that he will bear at least some responsibility for remedying this.

Was there any discussion at all up to now regarding the suitability of existing foul water discharge pipework which the new installation is connected to?

Perhaps the most appropriate next step is that you get some independent advice. This will give you an understating of what precisely is wrong, what a permanent, lasting solution will look like, and some indication as to whether the builder should be responsible for remediation or not.

In the first instance an inspection by an experienced plumbing contractor may be helpful.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583809#Comment_122583809

Hi Lenar, there was some discussion about the existing soil stack and waste, but it was driven by me. After he looked at the job I asked him if he saw any issues with the waste connections. He then asked me if the soil stack was plastic or steel. After I told him it was steel he phoned a friend and came back and said he'd need to cut into the soil stack and add a new connector / fitting, and the general approach to this is to liaise with apartments on the floors above and ask would they hold off on using water when the soil stack is being cut.

He also said that the dishwasher in the corner might protrude a bit due to the new pipework, but it should be fine. It turns out that the new pipes came right across the floor, so there was zero space for the dishwasher, this is why it and the sink had to swap places.

It's also annoying that he didn't seem to test it when the work was finished. Surely he should have run the new shower after it was installed, and checked the next day if there were any issues?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122584275#Comment_122584275

Certainly doesn’t seem very satisfactory.
I think getting some independent advice will (a) give you more confidence as to your position.
(b) Identify the best long term solution. You don’t want a half arsed solution implemented, which then goes on to cause more trouble down the line.

Some_randomer

Some ppl were asking for a pic of the soil stack and connecting pipe before the ensuite was added. The first one is before the work started, and the second is the new pipework.

old-kitchen-pipes-1.jpg

new-kitchen-pipes-1.jpg

mcgragger

Questions to answer

Is the guy that did the drains actually a plumber?

Does the sink have a trap, and the shower tray?

Can you see where the pipes connect to the stack now? Could there be a loose fitting or joint?

Are all the pipes falling towards the stack - if not then gravity is against you. Water wont flow up hill

Testing is part of an install agreement- ask him for the completion certs.

Did you pay for everything already? Like do you owe any money?

Sink, dishwasher, Toilets - they are all low use drains, how often is the sink draining at the same time as shower and toilets?

Shouldnt really be an issue if the pipes are all installed properly. My guess without looking is that there is an error or a fault with new drains -

Poor connection to stack

Loose joint

no natural fall

no traps

Blockage somewhere

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122585017#Comment_122585017

Is the guy that did the drains actually a plumber?

- yes he told me he's a qualified plumber, I wasn't there when the work was going on but I'm pretty sure he had another plumber with him. I say this because I had to pay extra for "the plumber" when the kitchen sink and dishwasher had to be swapped.

Does the sink have a trap, and the shower tray?

- the kitchen sink has a trap, not sure about the shower tray as the work is done and it's all sealed up

Can you see where the pipes connect to the stack now? Could there be a loose fitting or joint?

- The new 4-inch waste pipes in the kitchen are now underneath the kitchen unit in the corner, so it's pretty difficult to access them. The pics of them are from before the kitchen units were put back

Are all the pipes falling towards the stack - if not then gravity is against you. Water wont flow up hill

- good question, again it's hard to say as it's all sealed up

Testing is part of an install agreement- ask him for the completion certs.

- ok

Did you pay for everything already? Like do you owe any money?

- yes all paid, labour was paid for in cash, and he bought most of the materials which I also paid him him for in cash

Sink, dishwasher, Toilets - they are all low use drains, how often is the sink draining at the same time as shower and toilets?

- they're never used or draining together. The shower and toilet were only used once last weekend, haven't used them since as I don't want more leaks. Every time the sink or dishwasher is used I hear bubbling from the toilet, and also there's water coming back up into the new shower

leinster93

The bubbling from the toilet can be as a result of what's called "wet venting".

Here's something that refers to it

Was there any tiling done? What's the chances of grout or tile cement Was emptied down the waste pipe…and causing an issue.

https://happydrains.co.uk/blog/toilet-bubbling-shower-drains/#:~:text=What's%20the%20cause%3F,are%20nearby%20to%20one%20another.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122585582#Comment_122585582

Yes the new ensuite is fully tiled, walls and floor. I suppose there is a chance grout or tile cement got down the waste pipe, hard to know though and he's certainly not gonna admit it if it happened ;)

mickdw

I don't know what's going on there with the 4 inch looping around under the dishwasher area.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122585906#Comment_122585906

Very good question, I don't know either. It's like a chicane 😕

Sleeper12

I run a shower repair company. If we replace a shower, it is assumed that the original installation was done to standard. In other words it's not our problem if original pipework wasn't up to standard. If we install a new shower from scratch then we are responsible that it is up to standard.

You got a whole new an suit. I would suggest that installer should have inspected the pipework before he started & made any changes needed. Appartments are more difficult than most houses to make these changes

Some_randomer

So the plot thickens. I put on a clothes wash earlier, and I just noticed water on the floor behind the dishwasher. So it seems like the washing machine isn't draining properly or is also backing up.

I pulled out the dishwasher to get a better look and can see a small amount of water under the new pipe. It also doesn't look level, like it's sloping away from the pipe it's connecting to, which could be the cause of the water backing up?

2024-09-05 13.41.07.jpg

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Pics attached.

mickdw

IF your plumber cannot even join 4 inch sewer without it leaking, it's not good.

It appears they have used 2 collars together and so would have joined them with a short length of pipe internally. Perhaps even did the real cowboy effort and removed rubber seal to ease installation. There does appear to be sign of some.form.of white sealer in the joint.

I'd be having this all looked at again by independent company before it causes issue for other apartments under you.( if there are)

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586737#Comment_122586737

Thanks, can you recommend a good company (by pm) that might have a look at it?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586243#Comment_122586243

Is that water?
Looks more like lubricant used when assembling the joint.

embracingLife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122584932#Comment_122584932

OP can't you see the second photo is not in any way recommended way to fit soil pipe! Especially that they removed a kitchen cabinet to make space for the new pipework.

In the first photo you can see there's an unused round blank to the right of the white pipe, did they remove this and put another pipe into it? I won't hold my breath for an answer.

Your main question is what's causing the water leak to the timber floor and that it appears to be coming from the new pipes behind the wall. This is the problem in a nutshell. He f*cked it up.

(I edited my post so it appears disjointed)

There is no way these jokers are "plumbers" or can be described such in any way in relation to the pipework. I can't understand how anyone commenting on here isn't stating the obvious.

The problem with the backup of water in the kitchen and the new ensuite pipes is clearly due to the black pipes lying on the floor and possibly where the new joint on the main soil stack that he cut into. Do you have any photos of where the ensuite soil pipe joins to the main soil stack and if it's at floor level? You don't have to put up photos for this but you should find out for yourself.

The soil pipes lying on the floor is not sufficient for the water to flow through quickly to the down pipe. The water is probably lying in the pipe and pooling in it and only flows through when a large volume builds up in it. It's obvious this is causing the increase in height of water in the new ensuite toilet. The builder telling you it's due to the 5 pipes is a cop out and he's fobbing you off. Had he plumbed it all correctly there's be no issue with how many pipes are going in.

The others on here asking if your builder fitted traps to the shower tray and other sanitary ware in the ensuite are a bit uninformed as shower trays come with special low level waste fittings which have built in p traps. OP as bad as your builder was I doubt he didn't fit the standard shower tray waste as there's no other way to join the waste pipe to the tray without using the correct waste fitting - although it's a possibility he didn't!

The only part of the pipe that would be acceptable to be touching the floor is the part just before it enters the down pipe!

Also OP any plumber can give you a second opinion on this work. You don't need to trawl the country finding a specific "experienced plumbing contractor" - as if you will be able to get one anytime soon to even examine it.

It'd be better for you to get legal advice through a solicitor about this and get a surveyor to examine it and write a report listing the problem and explaining the correct procedure to install the proper route for the waste pipes. You can find by Google "building surveyors" yourself as a solicitor will take longer. But I don't see how this "builder" is going to fix it.

Re the "builder" - there's no way he is a real one. When you said he had phone a friend to get a second opinion on how to join onto the down pipe, it's obvious he hadn't a clue. And the other one who advised him to "liaise" with the apartments above when he was cutting the pipe - there's a procedure for informing the other apartments about carrying out work to the communal sewage pipes - but it's obvious you or him didn't do this.

On this point the builder by carrying out work to this pipe by cutting into it has left you and him with the responsibility for interfering with this soil stack pipe and any damage that he caused to it is now your responsibility. The management company and the management agency looking after the building will not be impressed when they find out you let some builders who are really cowboys cut into this soil stack and you don't know what condition they left it in! Your whole post about trying to fix the water problems in your ensuite is tbh nothing in comparison to what the hell he did to the soil stack and whether he cut it properly and sealed and water proofed it afterwards. You definitely need to get in to see the soil stack. Although even getting a camera in close to this pipe and video it is a good next step. In your case hopefully he cut into the soil stack properly and it's ok but if not and there's problems either now or in the future and the management company identify that the pipe has been interfered with after the building was built by someone you employed, then you will be exposed to paying for it all. It's sad to say that you didn't realise that this builder wasn't who he was claiming to be and you could have stopped him back then. But this is what happens with- excuse my words- someone naive dealing with tradesmen.

Any tradesman/builder/ even anyone with general knowledge of building work looking at the pipes would know what to do and him phoning his friend should have made you instantly realise he hadn't a clue.

In a nutshell you got ripped off by chancers. No doubt the black soil pipes on the floor for any long term solution have to be removed and joined closer to the soil stack or at least rerouted in a more efficient way with less or none of this pipe lying on the floor.

You paid them cash. Did you get any receipts or not? You don't have to answer this publicly but this raises alarms as any genuine builders especially for a bathroom would take payment other than cash.

The builder that fitted these waste pipes across the floor of your kitchen and is claiming ignorance of any water blockages/backups happening after they finished I can tell you he doesn't have any intent in rectify it! My advice to you would not let him "rectify" it without removing it all the pipes and doing it in a proper way! Definitely do not let him bully you in paying extra for him to fix it.

You need to get another plumber/builder/ surveyor to examine it all especially behind the walls and identifying the leaks, toilet backup and more importantly the condition of the new joiner fittings on the soil stack. It'll probably involve removing part or all of the walls and kitchen cabinets to be able to examine the pipes properly.

Don't bother wasting any time contacting the builder again. Instead get others to examine it and fix it. Then take legal action against him. His excuses as to the cause of the leaks should be enough to tell yourself that you are better off having no more contact with him. If anyone online tells you otherwise that you supposedly have to let the builder back to attempt to fix it, ignore them as the builders own actions have told you exactly what you should be doing. You have already contacted him and told him about the problems, he gave you answers which is his way of fobbing you off and him not positively giving you any reason that he will rectify it. Therefore you are not required legally to keep him informed of your actions going forward to fix the problems which includes getting another plumber/builder to fix the leaks and you subsequently taking legal action against him. The next contact he will have from you will be few weeks or months time getting a letter in the post from either your solicitors or the court service informing him of the legal action or better the court case you are taking against him. A solicitor will advise you accordingly but that's exactly what they will tell you.

The other poster telling you to download the small claims court application form is a good idea but in your case I suggest you get a solicitor advice as the final bill might be above the small claims court financial limits.

Sleeper12

Unfortunately despite spending thousands on bathroom renovations there is no guarantee that correct tradesmen are being used. It's very common for tilers to do everything. This can be dangerous because only REC can do the wiring, light fittings, electric showers etc and this work should be certed.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587759#Comment_122587759

I think you are jumping the gun a little, and potentially misleading the customer.

It needs to inspected onsite to establish what is going on. A fall of as little as 1mm per 100mm in that scenario may perform and still be self cleaning. While there does seem to be some fall in that black pipe, it’s not clear from the photos. Nor is why there is such an extensive loop.

It is also not clear to what extent this is new work and what is/was existing.

embracingLife

The poster should get full advice offline with a solicitor and or at least another plumber and if needed a surveyor. I'm not debating with you or anyone on here the issue as you nor I don't know the full situation.

The builder cut into the apartment building soil stack without informing the management company and agent and more importantly by the description given didn't get the required permission to do it in the first place and has now left the apartment owner with the responsibility of the repercussions of interfering with the pipe and any future issues with the new pipe fittings is their fault. The builder/plumber cutting into the pipe on their own isn't the way to do it and after with water leaking out is not a good sign they did a proper job.

As for me giving "misleading advice" is laughable. I come across similar **** show issues in people's homes on a regular basis and always tell people the full facts of the ramifications of the shoddy works the cowboys have done and aswell as recommend them to get solicitor advice. Several people have subsequently sued cowboys afterwards. I have dismantled similar sh1t pipe work to examine it for people to identify faults.

The white waste pipe going in the end of the black pipe in one of the OP's photos will be interesting to see how much if any back flow is going into this pipe as the full volume from the toilet is passing by where the white pipe is joined to

AndrewJRenko

We had to get our plumber / bathroom fitter back three times due to a leak in a new bathroom / wet room. The problem seemed to go away each time, and then reappeared. In the end, it was down to one particular connection for the shower. He had to remove the plasterboard in the neighbouring bedroom to get access behind the tiling. It was a bit of hassle chasing him, but he got it sorted in the end.

It seems very unreasonable to fit a bath or shower, then blame other stuff for a leak.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588125#Comment_122588125

Some of this is could well prove to be the case, but again I say hold fire until the OP gathers the facts, with the assistance of an independent experienced plumbing contractor, or other suitably qualified party.

I wouldn’t be spending money on solicitors just yet.

There will no doubt be an effective solution to this, and the sooner this can be identified the better. The question of who pays for it can be considered thereafter.

Sleeper12

Drips and even leaks are part & parcel of plumbing. Personally I have drilled into cables and water pipes. **** happens. The sign of a good tradesman is how willing they are to stand over the mistakes and willing to rectify same

carveone

Hesitant to wade in here as I'm not a plumber but I'm finding this thread informative.

The picture of the new chicane-themed pipework has an off cut under the pipe. I've seen that kind of thing before - there's one outside my kitchen used to space out one of the down pipes!

Do others think that was used to prop up the pipe to give a flow? If so, that's pretty bad, especially if it's not there now.

I must say I'm a bit suspicious whether any new connection was made to the down pipe at all.

I don't see why someone has to acrrue any sort of plumbing knowledge at all to get work done. Naiviety doesn't come I to it. I don't know the first thing about bricklaying but if I pay someone to put up a wall, I expect a wall not a long term commitment.

sheepondrugs

On this point the builder by carrying out work to this pipe by cutting into it has left you and him with the responsibility for interfering with this soil stack pipe and any damage that he caused to it is now your responsibility. The management company and the management agency looking after the building will not be impressed when they find out you let some builders who are really cowboys cut into this soil stack and you don't know what condition they left it in! Your whole post about trying to fix the water problems in your ensuite is tbh nothing in comparison to what the hell he did to the soil stack and whether he cut it properly and sealed and water proofed it afterwards. You definitely need to get in to see the soil stack. Although even getting a camera in close to this pipe and video it is a good next step.

OP please re-read that posters comment , I'm sure you have- that point is crucial. I don't think you said what level apartment is: hopefully ground floor and no others become involved.

You have to ensure that soil stack is has leak tight , get professionals in asap. Don't bother getting those comedians back to mess it up even more.

carveone

@sheepondrugs has a point. I'm director of our management company and I get the insurance quotes etc. Water damage has very high deductibles and results in seriously p-ed off neighbours who become first party to the damage (ie they get to claim on their own insurance, assuming they have any). This goes x1000 for sewerage. It's a nightmare you don't want.

We had a small kitchen fire in an apt last month. No damage to anyone else or common area. No claims. The apt had the wiring recertified in writing before we'd let the esb turn it back on and I have that cert for the insurers. We like our insurance to be affordable thanks.

Some_randomer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587759#Comment_122587759

Hi @embracingLife thanks for the detailed response. You're right I probably was a bit naive, but when a tradesman tells me things I know nothing about I assume they know what they're doing and will do the job properly. In the same way as I leave my car into a garage, I trust they know what they're doing and they'll fix it correctly 😉

As you say the most likely cause of the leaks is the new pipework and probably the lack of fall towards the soil stack. I asked the builder about this and here's his response:

"The reason for the two 45 fitting was the angle was too acute to fit a 90 degree. The raised stack which is steel comes up into a T which points into the kitchen, it was designed that way only for the kitchen.
So we came out of the T in steel and went to 4 inch. After that we used a T to pick up the kitchen on one outlet of T, and another outlet for the toilet & shower in the en-suite. There is no possible other way to connect everything to one soil stack, no matter what way it’s piped."

I managed to take a video a few days ago going in behind the kitchen units. Video isn't great as it's difficult to access, but it might give some clue how it looks now. Also added a pic from before the work was done showing the sink, washing machine, and dishwasher pipes going into the soil stack. I think the black connector is called a hopper? The second pic has a description of the new pipework.

SAVE_20240907_130124.jpg

new-kitchen-pipes-4.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1jw83t9zi6yxfakaaq90x/new-pipes-2.mp4?rlkey=9dy8yh0rzh1vwgwyohd6s5imb&dl=0

(Just cancel the Dropbox log in box if it appears 👍️)

Lenar3556

An alternative solution could be in the form a Saniflow or similar macerater/pump unit.

This allows the use of much smaller pipe and falls are no longer required. Waste water is pumped directly to the soil stack.

On the down side, it is another piece of equipment that needs to be maintained into the future, and ideally shouldn’t be necessary in a circumstance like this - but depending on the specifics is could be worth considering.

Some_randomer

So the builder is coming back to look at the problem this week. What I'm curious about now is how do I know if the problem is fixed? My gut feeling is he'll just raise the new pipes slightly in the hope that it'll create a flow towards the soil stack. To test it, I'm thinking he'll have to run the shower and watch the bedroom floorboards to see if any water starts coming up :(

(Just to note that the kitchen area, cavity area around the soil stack, and floor on the new ensuite were all dry after the leak - the leaking water came up through the floor in the bedroom).

I googled leak detection and there are some companies that use thermal imaging to detect hot water, but the ones I looked at are 600 euro plus for this service.

So what's the best way to test if the leak is fixed?

whizbang

The 4" connection to the stack is difficult to seal, my bet is thats the major leak, if theres even a 4" pipe at all..

Some_randomer

So just to update, the builder has stopped answering my calls and messages since the end of last week. It's now been two months since I told him about the leaks. He told me Monday last week (Sept 28th) he'd get back to me when he can arrange a day and time with the plumber, and he'd keep me posted. But no reply since, and calls and message have gone unanswered since yesterday morning.

I'm hoping it's just that maybe he's busy and still intends to get back to me, but it's two months now and not looking good.

So what are my rights if he goes AWOL, and what would be the next step to take? It was a cash job and all correspondence was via WhatsApp, and I already paid him the full amount. I don't have many details on him apart from his company name, and when I google it there are a few with the same name, so I'm not exactly sure which one he is.

mickdw

I think you have two real options.

1st is to call it a bad job, forget about him and get someone else in at your cost.

2nd is to call him from a different phone enquiring about having work done at a different address and have a few of your largest friends there to politely request your money back.

If you are unsure of his business details and no record of payments or contract of works, I don't see you having much success in legally chasing him.

ongarite

Thanks ChatGPT bot user for all your rambling posts!!

MOD NOTE

I've been keeping an eye on that "poster"and deleted the above.

I will continue to monitor those posts.