Re-rating of courses by Golf Ireland

cjfitz

I’m a member in Killarney and our courses were re-rated last year by Golf Ireland. These changes came into operation on the first of April. They seem daft to me and most other members. They get highlighted when I go away to play other courses. 

I played Dromoland twice recently, once off the whites and once off the yellows. I’m a 6.6 index and that gives me 10 shots on Killeen whites, 8 off of whites in Mahony’s and 6 off the whites in Dromoland. To me Dromoland is at least as hard as Killeen, if not harder. I’d love to know how Golf Ireland got to these ratings. 

For anyone not familiar with Mahony’s Point, it’s a decent course but very friendly off the whites. Not super long and not much water. It is now rated harder than the white tees in Tralee, Waterville, Fota and has a very similar rating to Dooks and Ballybunion Old. 

Does anyone have similar stories from their courses elsewhere in the country?

It’s going to make a lot members artificially low and will be a major disadvantage to our inter club teams. 

Killeen

Par 72

Old rating:

Blue 75.3/137

White 72.5/130

Green 70.2/127

New rating:

Blue 76.7/143

White 74.3/138

Green 71.6/131

Mahonys 

Par 72

Old rating:

Blue 72.0/122

White 70.2/120

Green 68.4/116

New rating:

Blue 74.0/136

White 72.3/136

Green 70.2/130

slave1

Has anything changed? Course ratings last something like 10/12 years then get redone, there a formula related to the average driving distance and forced layups, hazards, fairway width, trees etc, some of those must have changed, was the first or second not changed a year or so ago?

cjfitz

Ya I think the last rating was 2012 or so. 1st green changed in Killeen a number of years ago. Just off the 6th green was flattened and is less likely to roll towards the hazard. That’s it. No new bunkers or hazards or length added. Zero changes on Mahony’s.

Maybe these are some of the first ratings done since 2012/2013 and if so, are we all going to end up with ridiculous ratings and artificially low handicaps?

plumber77

That's just ridiculous. I'm a member in Tralee and to say Mahonys is harder is strange. Maybe once they are all re-rated it will sort itself out. Enjoyed our exchange day on Killeen course, so nice to have 10 shots again ;)

cjfitz

Ridiculous is right. It’s hard to see how Golf Ireland can stand by it. Ya maybe it will balance out when they are all done, but how long will that take and imagine how tough Tralee will be rated then 😂

RoadRunner

We played both courses at killarney this time last year for the society captains day. The courses got fantastic reviews. Scoring was high. And both courses felt fair (easier than what I normally play) Mahonys in particular was forgiving off the tee and it was felt was a very good society course (ie not too hard!) After hearing the new rating off the whites, it would be the place to play for me to get my HC as low as possible as the forgiveness off the tee suits my game. Dromoland was defo way harder!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058309261/boards-golf-society-2023-round-8-final-killarney-mahonys-point-2nd-sept-12-30pm

cjfitz

I agree. I’m sure both open days are attracting people who want to jump down quickly, particularly Mahony’s off the whites. I’ve played very poorly this year and my index hasn’t really moved at all. I’d be gone up by a couple of shots if I was a member elsewhere.

blue note

It's the point I make most often in relation to the handicap system - the course ratings are a problem. And from what I can gather they're rated on criteria such as - what hazard there are and where they are, how wide the fairways are, etc. What they don't take into consideration are the scores on the courses. Until they start looking at courses and saying these scores are too good / bad for the handicaps of the lads playing, they'll always have a problem.

I definitely think links courses are a problem for them too. They have less water and trees and I suspect are a little shorter on average too. These factors translate to an easy rated course. When that is not remotely the case.

paulos53

I am not surprised that the Mahony's Point rating seems incorrect. I played an open there earlier in the year and just had a look back at the results. Half of the field shot 36+ points while a quarter shot 39+ points.

It was only the 2nd time that I have seen a PCC of -1 since WHS came in.

cjfitz

I agree with you and that’s what makes Mahony’s rating so bizarre. It’s wide off the tee and there aren’t a huge amount of hazards.

cjfitz

That’s not surprising tbh but it shows how wrong the rating is. Our teams will be crippled with artificially low handicaps. And if all courses are going to be re-rated this harshly, it’ll take years to catch up. Think Golf Ireland needs to re-think this.

cjfitz

formatting issues 🙈

blue note

I didn't think a negative PCC was possible. That's the only one I've ever heard of. I also wonder whether a limit of 3 on the PCC is a problem. I've seen a fair few days with only a few people getting over 30 points. The course was playing a lot harder than three shots on those days.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577665#Comment_122577665

PCC range is -1 (when scores were unusually high) to 3.

I've had a few -1's applied to me.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577658#Comment_122577658

It's a WHS calculation, nothing to do with GI

cjfitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577890#Comment_122577890

So most courses are going end up with bizarre ratings and Golf Ireland can’t/won’t do anything about it?

plumber77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577890#Comment_122577890

It has something to do with GI if it's affecting its competitions. I'm pretty sure GI can have local rules as such to make WHS more applicable to Ireland.

golfguy1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577500#Comment_122577500

aagree with you 100%

you did play very poorly all yr.

regards

your 4ball matchplay partner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cjfitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579348#Comment_122579348

former match play partner I’d say 😉 🙈

Rikand

Length is the only parameter that matters

moycullen14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577557#Comment_122577557

100% agree with this. Some of the ratings are just bizarre, especially links courses. Mind you, trying to come up with a single figure to rate a course is very difficult. It can be quite an individual thing. I play in two courses regularly where the one I find easier is rated 10 higher than the other - a lot of it is down to what suits me. I'm not sure what the solution is but it's a huge problem when you're playing on different courses: teams, etc.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122580480#Comment_122580480

Absolutely agree with this. It must be so hard to come up with a universal system or universal criteria to rank a course. I'd argue its actually almost impossible. Local conditions, both weather and ground, have a such a huge bearing on how a course plays on a given day. Not sure what the answer is tbh.

IAmTitleist

Links courses seem to be a particular problem.

For example my home parkland is rated not much harder than Royal Portrush. At my parkland the only time you'll lose a ball is if you literally hit it over the perimeter fence out of bounds. Whereas at Portrush (and most links golf courses) you effectively have two out of bounds at the side of each fairway because the chances of finding your ball in the deep stuff if you miss the fairway is basically zero.

moycullen14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122580782#Comment_122580782

Links are a hoot. Was told by a member that Ballybunion (old) was rated quite low because there is virtually no water and no trees ⇒ it must be easy. Try it off the back sticks in a strong wind and see how you get on.

Using submitted scores is tricky because there is an in-built bias. You would have to use 'away' scores to come up with some sort of relative grading of courses. God knows how accurate that would be.

IrishOwl...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122580908#Comment_122580908

I played Ballybunion from the back sticks in 2016, in a 3 club strong wind, and it's still by far the hardest round of gold I ever played. The ratings are simply daft and illogical if Ballybunion is rated low because of the lack of trees and water.

coillcam

Dragging this back to the front page.

I heard my local course rating/slope will change on 1st Jan. Everything getting a bit easier, meaning our score differentials should be higher. Which means our handicaps should drift upwards slightly on average. Eg an 85 in 2024 could be 10.1 differential but 85 in 2025 is 10.9 differential from the same tees (not real numbers but you get the idea).

Hopefully, this will make us more competitive for interclubs in 2026. Assuming low indexes etc catch up accordingly.

Is anyone else finding their course move up or down?

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122945762#Comment_122945762

I'm very curious to know how they decided on the new ratings. Any idea?

JIdontknow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122946274#Comment_122946274

Not sure if these are helpful but here they are anyway!

Course Rating Information

course rating process.pdf

measuring golf courses.pdf

bakerbhoy

We are getting new red tees for gents. Not sure of the ratings or any changes as yet.

We currently are blue white green.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122946274#Comment_122946274

We renovated two holes so I guess that partly prompted it. We also have red rating for gents and yellow for ladies. I can be a single digit handicap for the first time ever on the reds 😂

moycullen14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122949028#Comment_122949028

We have that too. I think it's a great idea. Especially for the older gents and the low-handicap ladies.

slave1

Ireland has a mindset of Ladies tees due to embedded signage across the island and hence severe reluctance from those that need to use these tees to engage when the reality is tees are coloured for (ability) use and should not be gender assigned

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122946353#Comment_122946353

Thanks for this. It doesn't really answer the question I was wondering about though. What I'm wondering is when a rating feels wrong, can they just change it? Obviously there's a lot of criteria there that adds up to a rating, but where the club feels that it's not right can they (and do they) basically just change it? It would be one of those where like a college trying to pass a student, everywhere there's a bit of subjectivity can they lean the way they want to get the answer they're looking for? If they are doing that it must be basically off the books, as in there's no guidance on it.

I actually worked for a college and they absolutely did that for anyone close to a pass mark. Any 34% or above was scoured to see if they could get the student over the line. I'm pretty sure if they couldn't find an extra mark anywhere they'd try to find somewhere to take them down a percent or two. If at all avoidable you wouldn't fail a student by 1 or 2 percent.

JIdontknow

I could be wrong but my understanding (very limited) is there is some sort of template file and the assessor (Golf Ireland) just inputs the measurements into this, so for example they take it from a scratch and 18 handicap golfer so have a set distance from the tee, and measure the out of bounds / hazards left and right / width of the fairways? etc. from that point. Then they also take additional things like the depth of bunkers, I assume quantity of bunkers, water hazards, out of bounds, etc. But this is all input into a file of some sort to do the actual calculations, so I would think the only discretion is the actual information input into the template by the assessor. And when you consider some of the slope ratings of courses, it seems this method could be improved, there is some courses where you scratch your head thinking how is this the slope rating it is. I just took a small sample from:

National Course Rating Database

Mt Juliet (Par 72) - Blue Tees (back) - 76.1 - 143
Killeen Castle (Par 72) - Black (back) Tees - 78.3 - 141
Mt Juliet (Par 72) - Black Tees (Blues are the back) - 74.6 - 140
Enniscone (Par 73) - Black - 74.8 - 139
Bunclody (Par 72) - Black - 75.2 - 137
Killeen Castle (Par 72) - Blue Tees - 75.6 - 136
Macreddin (Par 72) - Black - 75 - 135
Tralee (Par 72) - Blue - 73.6 - 135
Tramore (Par 72) - Blue - 73 - 135
Mt Juliet (Par 72) - Amber Tees - 72.4 - 134
Tramore (Par 72) - White - 71.6 - 133
Mullingar (Par 72) - Blue - 73.3 - 133
Killeen Castle (Par 72) - White Tees - 72.5 - 132
Bunclody (Par 72) - White - 73.5 - 132
Rosslare (Par 72) - Blue - 72.8 - 131
Wexford (Par 71) - Blue - 72.1 - 129
Mullingar (Par 72) - White - 72.2 - 129
Macreddin (Par 72) - White - 72.3 - 128
Tralee (Par 72) - White - 72.3 - 128
Rosslare (Par 72) - White - 72 - 127
Enniscone (Par 73) - White - 72.3 - 127
Wexford (Par 71) - White - 70.4 - 126

"Course Ratings must be reviewed periodically and revised and reissued as necessary. New golf courses can change frequently during the first years after construction and must be re-rated within five years of the initial rating date. Thereafter, golf courses must be re-rated at least once every 10 years.”

https://www.randa.org/en/roh/appendices/appendix-g#:~:text=Course%20Ratings%20must%20be%20reviewed,least%20once%20every%2010%20years.

Poker Face

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122952052#Comment_122952052

Clubs cannot change the course and slope ratings, there is no facility for a club to change it in any of the handicap software. It is all done by Golf Ireland. Remember reading Killarney felt that there new rating was too severe and asked for a review but were told it wasn't being changed

billy3sheets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122949028#Comment_122949028

Do you think you could play to your lower handicap off the reds?

I'd be off 7, 11, 13 or 15 on our tees. I think I'd stand a better chance of playing to 15 off our blacks than 7 off our reds 🤔