How successful would a speeding ticket appeal be where no speed limit sign was present?

St1mpMeister

Got a ticket for doing 59 kph in a 50kph zone, but I had just turned off a road with a 60 kph limit on it. Camera van.

I checked today and there is no signage saying that the speed limit changes from 60 to 50 anywhere along the stretch where the van was situated.

Probably little chance of an appeal working for this (without having to argue in court) ?

BlakeS94

Give it a go, if you do nothing it's a 100% chance of losing.

Tweeter

I think you have a very valid point in that the rule is the speed limit is 50 unless otherwise specified and you were on a road that was clearly marked as 60. Appeal and good luck

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122540507#Comment_122540507

he had turned off the road with a 60kmh sign; if in a built up area with street lights, the presumption is that the other road is 50kmh. Hard to see how an appeal would improve the position.

mikeecho

Get photos or a video of the route, and get a solicitor.

Don't go this alone.

Is what you're saying is true, you've a very good chance of winning.

Aravo

So where did the 60kph limit finish? How do you know it's a 60kph zone. Normally a speed limit sign has 2 limits on it depending on your direction of travel. Unless the speed limit sign is a repeater sign.

mickdw

There are instances of this around the country where you come off a road without immediate signage.

I once was caught for speeding 100 in an 80. Saw the garda and glanced at clock doing 102 and thought I'm good.

Well I was in an 80 unknowingly. I completely failed the attitude test as I told the garda I saw no sign and that the major road I'd left was 100. He took licence and details and said I'd be getting points and fine. I told him I was immediately turning back to record last speed limit sign etc and would be appealing any speeding notice.

I turned the car around on the road and went back down from where I came.

I found that I had passed no 80 sign.

Anyway never got a ticket and never heard another word about it so appeal it I say.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122540490#Comment_122540490

And if you lose in Court, you get double the fine and double the penalty points.

markpb

Someone more knowledge than me might correct me but the way the legislation is written, the onus appears to be on the driver to know what class of road they are driving on and therefore what speed limit applies to it. The only exception is where the local authority have varied the speed limit for some reason like road works. There is plenty of legislation describing the positioning, layout and dimensions of speed limit signs but none that I can find that give them any legal meaning for motorists.

It’s still worth a try though.

St1mpMeister

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122543885#Comment_122543885

I think a solicitor would cost more than €160?

Anyway will try to appeal and see what happens… another thing that was interesting was that the camera van was parked in the dark under a large tree, aren't they supposed to be quite visible?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544052#Comment_122544052

You won't if you have a legitimate argument even if you lose.

On a side note, you ever feeling like giving it a rest you utter fool? Go back to living with your mother and **** over Cheryl Cole posters

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65535

Speed vans can and do park up in areas that are not even included on the Garda web site - you have to challenge them in court and you will have it dismissed.

Check the location where the van was parked up and ensure that it is included as a valid location.

Take photos or video of the road when you moved from the 60 to the 50 zone.

There are 80kph signs on a road in Fermoy coming from the motorway - the signs were loosened and pushed sideways so as you could not read them.

Then you had a zealot Guard patrolling the same road catching people doing more than the hidden signs.

Same Guard hides on the on-ramp waiting for speeders to pass.

On another occasion a Guard in Fermoy (probably same Guard) was stopping - yes stopping cars on the motorway by standing out with his hand up - he had one stopped - I went past at 120kph and blared the horn at him - for his own safety - havent seen him in a while - maybe the Super had a word with him.

They do these things deliberately to catch the unsuspecting or to catch those who will not challenge them.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544074#Comment_122544074

How can that be right. So a motorist must have some sort of internal computer that tells them they gave entered a 50 limit for example even if no signage.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544052#Comment_122544052

I assume thats up to judge on the day. They may drop the penalty points entirely if you have a valid argument and just ask for a donation in the poor box. You never know

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544266#Comment_122544266

Why would you lose if you have a legitimate argument? Are you suggesting that there has to be speed limit signs on a main road after each and every junction with a side road?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544885#Comment_122544885

Yes, it's up to the Judge of course. It's not unreasonable to point out the risk of the increased points. Actually, it's five points in Court, three points if you pay the FCPN, not double as I previously said.

mickdw

Considering the case where you turn off a main road into a side road with differing limit, there must be immediate sign displaying the speed limit.

Travelling the other direction, you will see the sign just as you approach the main road with differing limit.

That does tend to happen in practice. Without that, I believe you would have a good defence.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544039#Comment_122544039

Almost identical incident happened to me. Turned off a 100km road onto a similar designed road (two regional roads) and was pulled over by a guard for doing close to 100km. He says this is a 80km road, I explain I turned off the previous road and hadn't passed any sign to say the speed limit was different so I took it as the same.

In this case he agreed that it could be taken that the limit was 100km so he let me off.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544968#Comment_122544968

I don’t know why you are saying “there must be…”. National speed limits apply, 100kmh for a national road (indicated by N on the road number), 80kmh on a regional road (R or L) and 50kmhnis built up areas. By definition if you are moving from a “main road” to a “side road”, you would be attuned to it being an 80kmh irrespective of signage.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544847#Comment_122544847

Crazy at it seems, that's what the law appears to say. You can read it yourself if you want, it's all online at https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/. . Section 95 of the 1961 act says that a local authority "may provide signs … as they consider desirable". It then goes on to say that where a sign is provided, it must be provided in conformity with the rules for that sign. I'm definitely not legally trained so I could be missing something.

The law does not always play nicely with reality. This is why the district court deals with the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545504#Comment_122545504

There must be because otherwise the whole system falls down. The main road could be an 80 limit regional road as is local to me. The side road could equally be an 80 limit road or a 50 limit road and the standard of the physical road seems to play no part in this classification so how is a driver supposed to follow unknown limits?

St1mpMeister

Just checked Google Maps… and spotted this on the roundabout approach… holy shitballs

some scrote turned the sign around

This was from June 2023… I'll go over tomorrow and check

Jim_Hodge

I know somebody who, maybe 20 years ago, told a judge that the sign had been turned around. The judge asked the guard if this was true but the guard said he didn't know. Case was thrown out. And the sign hadn't been turned in the first place.

DaveyDave

It's an interesting situation, there's been multiple times I turned off a 50/60 side road onto a road I was certain was 60/80 but no indication of speed at the point I had joined and you can't always trust Google Maps/car nav to have the correct speed limits for that particular spot. Country roads so definitely not 50 anyway.

St1mpMeister

Wouldn't surprise me if the sign was completely removed as I drove along that stretch 2 days ago searching for a 50 sign just so I know I wasn't mad. I don't recall seeing a sign turned around.

There is indeed a 50 sign if you are coming from the OTHER side of the roundabout, according to what I've just seen on Google maps. But I've never been that way either, the route I go along has had the sign removed and the only one I've ever seen is 60.

I actually have the route I took on Google maps, so I can submit that too.

Funny thing is, when I was driving the stretch 2 days ago, now going 50, I was overtaken by every other car 🤣

User1998

I’d definitely take that to court. Or try go to the station first and see if they can cancel the court appearance

Gumbo

Here’s the view as you approach the junction. Should these signs be maintained by the road authority (Dublin City Council)?

Use this image along with actual footage you get yourself and appeal it.

The sign was turned around at least a year ago.

Map your route to see what was displayed. Just before the first roundabout is the 60 sign. Where you clocked before the sign or after the sign?

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544074#Comment_122544074

Correct. One is punished for exceeding the speed limit. The speed limit is set by legislation and/or bye-laws, not by a sign.

If you think there is a missing / incorrect signage, report it to the council.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547161#Comment_122547161

the system is based on the driver being educated as to what the default speed limits are. That should have been part of your learning process. Speed limit signs are mandatory for 60 and 30 but not for the national limits, ie 100, 80 and 50.

josip

But the speed limit isn't consistent for every class of road. Here's a regional road where the limit is 100, not 80.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544922#Comment_122544922

There has to be speed limit signs indicating the speed limit. The speed limit cannot change without a sign to indicate this to the public.

One could well lose even if they have a legitimate argument as it's up to a judges interpretation of the law to determine their ruling, eg signs turned the wrong way.. or no signs in alot of cases.

Are you retarded or just pretending to be?

A competent solicitor would have a field day in court with your bullshit interpretation of the law 😂

Was Cheryl good today btw..

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Damienmac

Not sure if this is helpful:

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/25/enacted/en/print#sec76

“(2A) In a prosecution for an offence under this section, it is presumed, until the contrary is shown by the defendant, that the speed limit indicated on a traffic sign is the speed limit that has been applied under this Act to the road when the offence is alleged to have been committed.”.

I read it that the traffic sign is the limit as far as speeding offenses go. Some people suggesting that the law is that you're just supposed to know the limit regardless of signage?

SupaCat95

There is also the issue of the speed gun. These are meant to be caliberated regularily as they tend to drift, of course they are not and there is a line of paper work to prove it. Also the Gardai are just another wing of the revenue commissioner, it was your turn to pay this time.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548465#Comment_122548465

in the absence of a contrary sign, the national speed limit applies. You’ll find some sections are 60 too.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546790#Comment_122546790

wasn't there a case a few years ago where it was argued that the speed limit should be on both sides of the road to be valid? is that in any statue law?

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548582#Comment_122548582

The alternative would be that people would willy-nilly vandalise signage and claim they thought the speed limit was higher.

Oscar_Madison

Best of luck if appealing OP- lots of photos and video more importantly to show no signs up to where you were stopped- maybe also a confirmation from the local council that yes indeed there are no signs there.

My natural inclination when on a road I’m not sure of is to slow down - simply because I got 3 plenty points a number of years ago so has peaked my focus ever since -but in this particular case I honestly couldn’t swear I would have been doing 50 either

Robson99

Has there to be camera signs on the road indicating that you are entering a speed van location or is it sufficient if they are shown on website

freddieot

If its up to the driver, just to know the speed limit, without any sign as some suggest, why are the local authorities wasting money on any speed signs ?

Also, not every turn off a main road has a sign showing the class of the road being entered, so that the limit can be determined.

I presume I need a detailed ordnance survey map in the car now as well as sat nav and the drone overhead.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548483#Comment_122548483

The speed limit doesn't change. It's the driver who is changing their route.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548590#Comment_122548590

If only there was some way to avoid being subject to these revenue collection measures?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549591#Comment_122549591

there is, complying with the speed limit as posted on the adequately displayed speed limit sign.

In this instance, it would appear the sign post has not been adequate maintained by the roads authority.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549606#Comment_122549606

Or just comply with the speed limit, and don't be expecting signs at every side road junction.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548483#Comment_122548483

Wrong. Prosecutions are based on speed limits. The speed limit is determined by reference to legislation and bye-laws. Signage is mere evidence of a speed limit.

antodeco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549612#Comment_122549612

I can't wait for the mystic meg section of the theory test

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548997#Comment_122548997

You need a sign if you want a non-standard speed limit to apply. If the default speed limit on a particular road would be 50kmh, but for whatever reason - a sharp turn, poor lines of sight, a high rate of accidents, a park entrance with kids going in and out - you want some other limit then you need a sign.

You don't need to post the speed limit where it's the default speed limit, but councils can, and often do, to avoid uncertainty and simply because posting the speed limit, even when it is the default that would apply anyway, is associated with increased compliance.

St1mpMeister

The thing is, they DO have a sign, so they determined it is required.

In this instance the 60 kph road is actually the same width/appearance as the 50 kph so I think that might be why they need the signs to tell you it's a minor road.

This is the road that is the first turn off from the roundabout on the 60 kph road and has a 50 kph sign

it's directly opposite from the road I went down which is the 3rd turn off and has no sign, apart from the one approaching the roundabout that is turned around

loyatemu

I'd challenge that - if you have photographic proof the sign is missing or turned around I'd expect it to be thrown out.

People talking about the default limits - there are built up areas with 30, 40, 50 and 60 limits, if there's no sign how are you supposed to know? He passed a sign saying 60, where is he supposed to slow to the "default" if he doesn't see any signs?

Buffman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058366015/how-successful-would-a-speeding-ticket-appeal-be-where-no-speed-limit-sign-was-present

Put in the appeal and see what comes of it, only a few forms to fill in. Put it in ASAP, it doesn't stop the clock on the fine/court time limits.

https://www.garda.ie/en/roads-policing/fixed-charge-notices/cancelling-fixed-charge-notices.html

The applicable section in your case is Category A.

"

……….Cancellation Request Categories: Cancellation requests fall into two categories.  Category A covers mainly procedural issues.  Category B relate to cancellations based on exceptional circumstances.

Category A

Cancellation requests falling within this category include –

1. Where there is a detection issue / material error in relation to the alleged offence as outlined on the FCN e.g. incorrect speed limit.

……………….."

St1mpMeister

I thought the smart meter stuff was part of your response to me 🤣

From what I gather it should be possible to submit the appeal via the email? npo@garda.ie

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549672#Comment_122549672

It's not that hard really.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549694#Comment_122549694

antodeco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122552225#Comment_122552225

Ok, so what speed is the road outside where I live?