Roundabouts—give way to the right

moonage

The Rules of the Road say "give way to traffic coming from the right or already on the roundabout".

I find this is somewhat ambiguous. If a vehicle on a junction to your right is approaching but hasn't yet reached their give way lines but you have reached yours, do you have to give way to them or not?

My view is that if you can pass your give way lines before the vehicle to your right can pass theirs, then you are technically on the roundabout and have priority. The circle of the roundabout is the major road and the junctions are minor roads. "Give way to traffic coming from the right" is there because the roundabout is one way and we go clockwise around it.

What say you?

Akrasia

If there are more than one cars already waiting to enter the roundabout and there is only space for one, then cars to the right have right of way, if both cars can safely enter the roundabout without impeding each other, then both cars can enter.

JVince

You give way to traffic to the right that is in or entering the roundabout.

But you also give way to vehicles ahead of you that may be moving lanes in order to exit.

But the biggest stupidity I see on a roundabout is people indicating that they are going ONTO a roundabout - rather than indicating what they plan to do on the roundabout.

moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496720#Comment_122496720

But can a vehicle be defined as "entering" the roundabout if it is still approaching its give way lines?

Lots of people would probably say yes but it's not very clear.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496801#Comment_122496801

You need to use your judgement. If the other car sees you are stopped at the roundabout and know its their 'right of way' they might keep going instead of slowing down. If you decide 'I'm here first' and enter the roundabout at the last moment, they'll crash into you, and you'll be at fault for not yielding to the car to your right.

Akrasia

The key thing about roundabouts, is there isn't usually a stop sign. Drivers are not expected to stop at the roundabout, see who has priority, and then decide whether to go or yield.

At a roundabout, you need to assess whether you can safely enter a roundabout by looking at any cars already on the roundabout, or any cars to your right who may be about to join.

If there is a car heading towards the roundabout at 50kph from your right, and you're doing 5kph, and if you entering the roundabout would cause the other driver to have to slam on their brakes to avoid you, then you're in the wrong (even if the other driver should have been going slower when entering their side of the roundabout)

moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496813#Comment_122496813

Yes, I agree that you have to be very careful and cautious to avoid any collisions.

I'm just trying to look at it from a purely legal point of view.

Charles Babbage

If you enter the roundabout before someone else enters it then you have the right of way. They are not entitled to speed into the roundabout without considering the someone else may enter the roundabout before they do.

Akrasia

Or more simply, treat the roundabout like a junction. Assume that you're entering from a minor road onto a major road with a yield sign. If there is a car coming from your right, assume they're not going to slow down to let you join the main road. This applies whether they are 'on the roundabout' or 'approaching the roundabout'

the 'give way lines' aren't a thing. Its not a race to get to those lines first so you can suddenly be on the roundabout and then claim priority

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496801#Comment_122496801

I would say the situation is different if a car is approaching the roundabout at 80km/h versus 20km/h

In general I take the view that if a car to the right is approaching at speed, they're probably going to try and go around the roundabout at speed

In that case, caution may be the better option. As my driving instructor said to me once "if you have to ask the question of whether you'll make it, then it might be better to just wait"

As for the exact definition of the law, I'll admit I'm not 100% sure. I believe the rule is that you yield to traffic already on the roundabout and theoretically all car would go around the roundabout at the same speed so you won't get in each others way

When theory meets practice however, you sometimes get a car crash

To pose a slightly different question, is it better to be in the right in a car crash, or in the wrong and avoid a crash?

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496844#Comment_122496844

This is not the correct interpretation. Imagine a roundabout with 5 exits. North, South, East and West, feeding from and into main roads with mostly free flowing traffic that tend to join the roundabout at 50kph when traffic is free flowing, with one minor exit into an industrial estate with a sharp turn onto the roundabout that means traffic joins at 5kph…

The cars from the 5th entrance to the roundabout, the lets call it the 'northeast' entrance, will be arriving slower and will be entering from a very minor road onto a main road, so they should be much more cautious to allow heavier traffic to pass them rather than just getting onto the roundabout first and forcing cars that are already travelling faster to slam on the brakes to match their speed

moonage

Let's say there's a small roundabout with only two cars, both going at the same speed. Car A is approaching from 6'O Clock and car B from 3'O Clock.

Car A gets to the roundabout first and proceeds because he says he has priority since he got there first.

Car B arrives at the roundabout slightly later than car A and proceeds because he assumes car A has to give way to him because he is to the right.

They crash. Who is at fault?

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496955#Comment_122496955

You cannot ram a car already on the roundabout because you are on their right.

The fundamental concept of roundabouts is that people entering have to give way to those already on the roundabout. Since roundabouts are clockwise, this is where the giving way to the right comes in.

moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496966#Comment_122496966

Yes, I agree with you.

Britain has similar rules to us and I was watching stuff on YouTube and most of the people in the comments believed that you should give way to approaching traffic to the right that isn't yet on the roundabout. That's what most driving instructors over there seem to teach. It doesn't make sense.

con___manx1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497005#Comment_122497005

It Makes sense allright. if you see a car going fast before it enters the roundabout on your right you should yield if you have not yet entered the roundabout or you could pull out before he enters and you want to risk loosing a leg with that car smashing into your drivers door. You will be in the right tho if it goes to court. You can hop into court then for some compo.

moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497015#Comment_122497015

So you agree in principle that first on the roundabout has priority.

Obviously you wouldn't emerge if it might cause a collision, regardless of who has priority.

Akrasia

The rules of the road say you have to yield to drivers approaching the roundabout from the right, even if they're not already on the roundabout.

This argument seems to be boiling down to the definition of 'yield'

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497144#Comment_122497144

Yes, it's "yield right of way". In other words, the car from your right has right of way and you shouldn't enter the roundabout unless it's safe to do so.

TheChizler

The only actual legislation mentioning rules for roundabouts just says to go clockwise, otherwise regular junction legislation applies. You wouldn't enter a junction if can see you're going to impede someone else's progress, whether they're already in the junction or about to enter it. Likewise if you're going to be out of the way before they get there you can probably go for it.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497365#Comment_122497365

Fully agree with the last point and this is where judgement comes in which a lot of people don't like to apply. They prefer the certainty of a red/green traffic light or even a stop sign as its a black and white decision with no judgement required.

In reality if approaching from 6 o'clock and see a car approaching the 3 o'clock entry you can judge its speed and decide you can safely enter the roundabout without obstructing the car about to enter to your right. Course if it's a BMW you plant the right pedal and get in ahead of him🤣

JVince

Rules of road state "You must yield to traffic coming from the right, but keep moving if the way is clear."

That would include those entering from the right including the dumbass approaching at 80kmh and barging his way through because he could see nothing coming to his right.

That he is driving with care and attention would not give another motorist the right to move onto the roundabout because the dumbass driver should have slowed down.

My guess, if something like this went to court a judge would ask if you were able to prevent an accident and if you were, you'd probably be found at least partially at fault.

Gooser14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496720#Comment_122496720

But you're supposed to indicate left when entering the roundabout if you are leaving at the first exit.

moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497144#Comment_122497144

So in my hypothetical scenario in post #12 you'd say Car A should give way to Car B even though Car B is not yet on the roundabout?

Gooser14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497144#Comment_122497144

Can you give me the page number where this is stated in the Rules of the Road.

Akrasia

Page 134

Riskymove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498802#Comment_122498802

Page 134

You must yield to traffic coming from the right or traffic already on the roundabout, but keep moving if the way is clear

as mentioned the question seems to be how far one should interpret "traffic coming from the right" vs "the way is clear"?

cars almost at roundabout?

20m away from roundabout?

etc.

moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498971#Comment_122498971

But page 134 doesn't say to give way "even if they're not already on the roundabout."

Allinall

OP. It's no different than pulling out of a side road and turning left. You give way to traffic coming from the right.

The equivalent scenario to the car not having joined the roundabout but travelling at such a speed that they crash in to you would be a car on the main road where you can see them, but would have sufficient time to pull out and get up to speed, were they travelling at a reasonable pace. If they crash in to you, they would have to have been speeding, and would be at fault.

Whether that result would be corroborated by the insurance companies, or a court, would depend on a lot of factors.

Witnesses, skid marks, forensics etc.

Riskymove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499016#Comment_122499016

you are correct

but what could be meant by "traffic coming from the right" given it mentions "or traffic already on the roundabout"?

it must be traffic coming from the right that is not "traffic already on the roundabout"?

I think that is the question….

Viscount Aggro

Ive seen this a lot... I'm waiting to enter a roundabout. Cars are barreling onto it, from the right..nobody letting me on, and cars honking at me to move.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499016#Comment_122499016

Eh, yeah it does, not in those exact words, but that's what it says

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498039#Comment_122498039

What he's referring to is the idiots who, when approaching the roundabout, indicate right regardless of what exit they are intending to leave the roundabout by. Their twisted logic being (presumably) that since they are turning their steering wheel to the right, they must indicate right.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498039#Comment_122498039

True, but I see plenty of people indicating left to enter the roundabout, then starting to indicate right as they follow the roundabout to the right and then go all the way round and exit at 3 O Clock, we know you are turning left onto the roundabout, you have no choice in that matter, they should only indicate left on entry if they are taking the 9 O Clock Exit

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497032#Comment_122497032

Whoever gets to the roundabout first essentially has the right to enter if unimpeded.

However in reality, drivers who are following a main road, say a primary route entering a roundabout often consider they have the right to drive straight on and that those entering from more minor roads should give way to them.

They're wrong but that doesn't really help and best just to watch and be prepared to stop and let them at it to avoid accidents.

On a separate matter, what genius thought of mixing unsegregated cycle lines with traffic roundabouts?? A recipe for disaster.

AlanG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122496826#Comment_122496826

Anyone approaching a yield sign who cannot stop due to their speed is in the wrong, roundabout or not.

moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499040#Comment_122499040

But there is difference in that the car is already on the main road and has priority and minor roads have to yield. Even if it speeding it still has priority.

Whereas in the case of a roundabout the circle is the main road and if a car hasn't yet reached its give way lines then the cars on or entering the roundabout have priority.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499395#Comment_122499395

Whereas in the case of a roundabout the circle is the main road and if a car hasn't yet reached its give way lines then the cars on or entering the roundabout have priority.

That's not a very accurate statement. Cars on the roundabout always have priority, but cars entering it may not. There are four entrances to most roundabouts and each entrance has to give way to traffic on the right. So if one car is entering, the next one on the left has to give way.

This isn't rocket science, but the discussion here has me scratching my head. If the car on your right is entering or about to enter the roundabout or even stopped waiting to enter the roundabout, you MUST give them the right of way. Other distances may require judgment as to whether it's safe for you to enter or not. The same judgment you have to exercise when joining a main road from a side road. If you can do it safely, then go. Otherwise stop.

moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499050#Comment_122499050

"Traffic already on the roundabout" could also mean traffic straight in front of you or to your left.

Gooser14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499102#Comment_122499102

You should indicate left on entering the roundabout if taking the first exit, irrespective of where the first exit is.

Viscount Aggro

I read about a court case where someone crashed into the back of a car on a roundabout.

It was judged to be the first cars fault. They stopped on the roundabout, which you are not allowed to do.

mulbot

Another huge problem seems to be position on roundabouts. People entering, taking the inside lane (used for 3rd exit or subsequent exits, , then cutting lanes to the 2nd exit. Crazy

extra-ordinary_

ahh…roundabouts…can see this thread going to many pages…lol

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499395#Comment_122499395

Not according to the rules of the road

JohnC.

A lot of it will be common sense if you give way or not, surely? And depending on the size of the roundabout. Could be a small roundabout and you entering at the same time as another car could put you in its way. Or a large roundabout where it wouldn't be a problem. Or a very large one where you can't even see the previous entry point.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498039#Comment_122498039

Correct. But look at the number of people who indicate RIGHT because they are going onto the roundabout - then they indicate left after entering the roundabout.

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499429#Comment_122499429

You Do not have to wait for a vehicle stopped at a roundabout waiting to enter, if they're waiting for a car to come from the right you may have plenty time to go

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499853#Comment_122499853

See all the 'ifs' and 'mays' in your post? That's the bit in my post that's covered by "judgment" and "safely".

baxterooneydoody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499875#Comment_122499875

Then "MUST" is not the appropriate term to use in this situation, to then say it's up to "judgement" nullifies anything said before that which is wrong as we're dealing with law, which as we all know doesn't allow for bad judgement calls

Gooser14

What really annoys me on roundabouts is when the driver stays in the inner lane & then cuts across the outer lane at the last moment to exit rather than moving into the outer lane before reaching their chosen exit. I mean, if they were turning left off a straight road rather than a roundabout would they stay in the r/h lane until they reach their l/h exit & then do a sharp l/h turn across the l/h lane. Perhaps they would.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499891#Comment_122499891

Yes it is. Because they have right of way. If you pull out as they do and they hit you, you're at fault. If another car is on the roundabout (in your scenario), they have right of way first. So either way you have to yield.

Judgment only comes into it if the car they are yielding to, turns onto your road, giving you a chance to get on the roundabout without causing an accident. But it doesn't give you right of way.

But you go ahead and tell me when you think you have right of way over traffiic from your left.

BrianD3

All I can say is - Jesus Wept

There is nothing in the ROTR about giving way to vehicles approaching a roundabout. The ROTR says "yield to traffic coming from the right or traffic already on the roundabout". The first part of this could be interpreted in several different ways. But on a fundamental level, to enter a roundabout, a driver must pass a yield sign/line. That means that drivers already on the roundabout have priority. Also, as a roundabout is a single way, clockwise carriageway, any driver already on it is coming from the right of any driver waiting to join it.

If you are on the roundabout, anyone approaching it has yield. In practice, what we get are dickheads approaching the roundabout at speed who can't stop even if they tried to and haven't considered anything other than traffic they can see to their right. They're in the wrong and are dangerous drivers but because there are so many of them, its wise to yield to them - which then has the negative effect of validating their bad driving.

Road engineers deliberately restrict visibility at roundabouts to try to slow people down. If they didn't, things would likely be worse.

It's not different to entering a main road from a side road. If you are doing that you yield to traffic already on the main road. You don't (or shouldn't have to) give way to traffic approaching from other side roads on the same side of the main road.

PS the "right" in "right of way" has nothing to do with, as seems to have been suggested on here, yielding to vehicles on the right