4 Berth Camper Conversion - Best Van

memaul

Hi All,

I'm thinking of going ahead with a camper van conversion and am trying to figure out what's the best van to go with. We're a family of 4.

Appreciate any advice

Your going to need a high roof long wheel base.

If you could find a non-rusty transit it would likely be a good bet. Most would opt for a Sprinter but they are top of the price heap and also prone to rust.

IVECO traveller is worth considering but these are a bit less refined and not many about.

memaul

Thanks for the advice Shoog. I'm thinking a fixed double bed to the rear of the van and a rib seat/bed towards the front. Lots and lots to think about :)

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122482204#Comment_122482204

I'd go relay/boxer/ducato L3H3 which allows nearly 6 foot width ways and double bunk 2 small doubles, this would probably use up the least percentage of space inside I think?

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122482575#Comment_122482575

I'm looking at the moment, and like that only the boxer/ ducato are wide enough for a traverse bed. Although pods for extra width for a bed on narrower van conversions are also "a thing". The other thing to consider is the mounting points for the rib beds - there's a few people on youtube who've installed one and had to make adjustments/ get metal fabricated due to the placement of the beams under the van exactly where the mounting points were (https://youtu.be/fHEWlBOMPjo?si=l8dgzp_R1ogqO50h)

It'll be the new year before I really commit, but still trying to work on which van. The other thing with the Boxer/ Ducato is just under 6m, which apparently is a significant price differential for ferry's.

listermint

as above, any 4 berth is going to have to be LWB and HL roof regardless of choice of make model or engine.

Things to consider is weight and license requirement also. Do you need to get an additional license if you choose the wrong van type. You could end up with overweight by accident by picking the wrong van.

Ive been considering this on and off for last few years, but the van markets always been all over the shop since Covid. Obviously because people are seeking to do exactly what you are. Personally id be looking at either a Sprinter or Ducato/Boxers. More of the latter because having driven a few of the 1.9 JTD they are powerful and reliable plus they are the basis for the vast majority campers across the EU. Thats not by accident

Macy0161

Well I'd guess it's availability as well, but makes conversion parts more readily available. As a van, the Master seems very well regarded for reliability and seems to have a different/ better metal treatment? I've read of non-emergency ambulance fleets in the UK switching away from Ducato to the Master due to the better reliability, but I did read that in a master/ movano group! 🤷‍♂️

I seriously considered the Master for a long time. However the engines are chain driven but the chain system is a real weakness as it's a really thin and flimsy chain tensioned by hydraulic pressure on teflon guides. If the service intervals are skipped then the flimsy chain can simply jump and snap and I heard of enough cases of this happening to consider them unreliable. Also a chain is usually a life of the engine job - but in the case of the master it's got a relatively short service life and is expensive to change.

Watching weight and license class is a good call. Our medium wheelbase medium roof sprinter is already at 2.9tonnes fully loaded so it easy to see a long wheel base high roof exceeding the 3.5t limit for a normal driving license.

memaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122482575#Comment_122482575

Thanks celtic_oz. I'm trying to figure out if I'll go with the 2 fixed doubles or a double and 2 singles. I've seen nice designs for fixed versions of both

memaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122482845#Comment_122482845

Great to know about the ferry as there will hopefully be some trips to France

The reason the Ducato is used as the base for most coach built campers - is because Fiat is the only manufacturer who produce a chassie designed for coach building campers.

I really don't think you can read much more into it than that.

There is a reason why the Sprinter accounts for the majority of commercial vans in Ireland.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486411#Comment_122486411

Well no the 1.9 jtm block is ubiquitous in variety of marques and makes across Europe its a great unit. The sprinter as usual carries brand weight. It's also not across the majority of commercial vehicles where are you getting those stats !

I guarantee if you watch any stream of traffic, in the target size, you will see a majority of sprinters. Go try it.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486863#Comment_122486863

Traffic is not a defining feature of vehicle registrations. The vehicle registrations and tax reports are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487099#Comment_122487099

Really go look at what the majority of commercial fleet carriers are using in Ireland - I guarantee it is a sprinter.

Its certainly not a Ducato.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487104#Comment_122487104

You made the point go grab the sales and registration stats.

Remember I didn't make the blanket assertion that sprinters are the most purchased commercial vehicle. ...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487318#Comment_122487318

It's up to the person ultimately to make a decision based upon what meets his needs.

Sprinter is the most popular vehicle for delivery services, independent business' and passenger carriers and an objective look around will confirm that. They sell because they are reliable, efficient, fast and have good capacity whilst still been easy to drive. They are more expensive because of all this and they hold their value longer than any other van in this size class.

The only reason not to choose a sprinter is if you can't afford one.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487331#Comment_122487331

Avoiding the point you made I see.

I'll round this out for you then.

The ford transit is and has always been the most popular commercial van in Ireland and the UK. They are facts.

Followed by the transporter which is volkwswagon

The sprinter usually comes in 3rd or 4th depending on the year you look at and swaps in and out with the renault trafic.

I've got a trafic btw.

Anyway your point was false and the follow up about affordability was silly too. Have a good weekend.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487522#Comment_122487522

Not getting into a pissing contest with you.

I have given my opinion and memaul can take it or leave it.

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487331#Comment_122487331

I went with a boxer primarily because they are wider and I wanted to have the bed width ways and you get an additional 100mm, which makes for a more efficient use of the inside imo.

And it just about does. The sprinter would not have been wide enough for me to have that layout.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487677#Comment_122487677

Yep it's a factor. We have a queen sized bed (bigger than king-size) in ours but it's organized as a rock and roll bed across the back. There's only two of us and comfort for us and the dog was the top priority.

You could just about fit a bed sideways in a Sprinter but if your 6'2" like me it would be a squeeze.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487582#Comment_122487582

It's not a pissing context. You could have just said I made a statement that was wrong. I like my sprinter so therefore I made a boo boo.

It's not the most popular It's not the most ubiquitous not even 2nd 👍

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488194#Comment_122488194

Your on a hard ignore.

Macy0161

I actually would've guessed transits, based on paying attention the last few weeks. Sprinters (and transits) do have a pretty poor reputation for rust amongst the conversion facebook groups though. But that's always with bias.

If you look at the reliability sites, any van I've considered has scored well enough I wouldn't be put off tbh!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122494400#Comment_122494400

Transits have traditionally been the worst for rust, but I think they are better now as they pay more attention to rust proofing.

People who own transits seem to love them and they have the advantage of been cheaper all round. Just find a rust free one if you can!

Macy0161

I think they're all mainly a wash at this stage to be honest - it's about finding a decent individual van at the right price, with the space you can make work.

If I was going small I'd 100% want the transit custom and copy the Nugget Plus, but the L3H3 (which is the biggest fwd) just doesn't really work for what we need and the rwd L4 is over 3500kg so ruled out for practicality purposes (only I'd be able to drive it!).

Just remember the 3.5tonne limit is not the van plate weight - it's the finished article fully loaded weight. I am not certain any of the high roof long wheel base are going to allow a build out under that limit.

memaul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498209#Comment_122498209

Again, thanks for the advice. I'm really glad I started this thread. I hadn't looked at the van weights in great detail just yet but in my head I was planning the layout on a L4 H3 van. Do you think its not realistically going to be possible to do a proper conversion and stay below the 3,500kg?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122499099#Comment_122499099

Its something to consider in your plans - but can't be certain really. I think its probably easily possible with care - but you need to keep an eye on it at all stages.

My guess is that the average conversion will easily add 500kg to the basic weight. 100ltr water tanks will be 100kg all by themselves. Four passengers at least another 150kg. Our mattress alone weighs 50kg. Leisure batteries another 50kg. It all adds up.

Its possible to get low weight ply to keep weights down but its fiercely expensive and hard to source in Ireland.

You need to look at the base weight of your proposal and then do a rough calculation of what you need to put in.

Macy0161

Well i definitely think it's something that has to be really thought about. You do look at some of the builds on facebook and youtube and wonder how they're not overweight. Even the 150g is probably conservative for 4 passengers!

traco

Width in the rear is a big factor particularly if you want a width ways bed. The French vans are the widest and I think the transit is next then the Merc / VW. I know that table above says 1.8 for both but it isn't clear where that measurement is taken and if its metal exterior panel to panel 1m above the floor the transit is wider. It has similar dimensions to the Ducato etc between the wheel arches which is also important.

French stuff is excellent and brilliant for owner operators but a bit soft if using them for couriers etc but they are cheaper. German stuff great for taking abuse but repair costs reflect the premium car sector. Ford, somewhere between the two I reckon. I have a 162 Mk8 LWB HR 350 Transit 155bhp well spec'd up. Drives like a car but I'm not convinced its as robust as previous gens. However its minded like a small child and when it is moved on from the business I will buy it and covert. Probably use two pods in the rear for transverse fixed bed as I'm 6'4" and its comes in under the 6m length so OK in supermarket car parks and what not even if it sticks out a bit.

As for popularity here are the stats YTD so we can get put that chat aside and get back to the vans.

celtic_oz

I know that table above says 1.8 for both but it isn't clear where that measurement is taken 

Its the internal loadspace width, from UK van guide : https://www.vanguide.co.uk/guides/ford-transit-dimensions/

Transit :

Peugeot Boxer

taken from the same guide https://www.vanguide.co.uk/guides/peugeot-boxer-dimensions-key-measurements-compared/

Internal load width would be the most relevant I think for a width ways bed. Between the arches are similarly wider.

traco

We had a Ducato Maxi before the Transit and it was wider but lower roof height. I move items that are 1,315mm wide so need the wheel arch space.

This is a sheet that I keep in the van as a ready reckoner for what we can get in. I will check the dims behind the wood panels as that's where I would place the bed so that it utilises the skin of the van with some insulation and carpeting to get max size available. As I said other option is fiberglass pods and they are common in the US. They are regularly used on Sprinters to get the width.

The weight here is with ply lining, tow bar and maybe half a tank of fuel. A Ducato etc might give you an extra 100kg. Looking at vans on Donedeal and some of the very long ones I think they are very borderline on being legally usable loaded with family and gear.

I reckon a built out van needs at least 500kg capacity when full with fuel and water. Also many of the smaller vans like Transit custom, Traffic, Transporter etc can be plated as low as 2,900kg so anyone building using one of them as a base should make sure they buy the one with the max plated capacity.

traco

Out of curiosity and also as it was annoying me I checked the panel to panel dimensions in the Transit and its 1,940mm. Which is 6'4" by my calcs. So if you put in some sound deadeneing, reflective bubble insulation or whatever it is and carpet lined the recesses you could loose 25mm or an inch.

It would be tight for me but possibly workable, for anyone sub 6 foot a transverse bed could be fine. More insulation would be beter so there is a compromise there but aren't all builds and layouts a compromise of some sort or another.

I measured vertically above the center of the rear wheel arch approx 1m above the floor level. Just drilled a tiny hole in the ply lining and used a vernier claiper for the depth. That gave 120mm and its 1700mm between the ply side to side. To be 100% sure I'd like to take the ply off but I think I am close enough.

Image below for ref of where I am talking about.

Mefistofelino

Can't comment on the specifics of your measurements but I think it would be worth searching for any commercially manufactured conversions of that version of the Transit - e.g. Globecar - and see if they were offering it with transverse beds.

There are a number of suggestions available online as to how to maximise the width including avoiding windows at that height (as the frame protrudes a little into the van) or even using GRP "pods" to bulge the walls out

I would be very slow to skimp on the insulation in that area to maximise the width. Some make very bold claims as to the effectiveness of very thin insulation materials - a miserable winter weekend isn't the time to find out those claims were absolute BS.

Yes I would be very reluctant to sacrifice insulation in that area for a transverse bed. When we got ours there was no insulation in this area and the draughts made the edge of the bed not nice to be in - which is where your head would be.

I know at least one person who went with a transverse bed and regretted it, they only got a good night's sleep when their partner slept on the couch.

traco

The US seem to covert a lot of Transits and those side pods are quite common. Swift has just lauched teh Trekker in the UK in a 5.6m and 6.0m or somthing - basically the medium and long wheelbase. I'd like to see one in the flesh and I think they are an interesting build for a couple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93VlNOTlVp4&t=655s

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122561009#Comment_122561009

I've seen some recent conversions with spray on cork onto the metal work to remove condensation potential and then normal stick on / rock wool on top of that. The Cork being natural and doesn't come with the nasties and off gasing of spray foam.

Macy0161

The pods are pretty common, particularly in Sprinter conversions. There's a couple that have a whole youtube series (self built stories) converting a transit, and they had a slide out extension (for him) on the bed to get the extra length iirc.

I'm really on the fence on a traverse bed - I really can't see it working on a small/ 4ft double for us anyway. Albeit I always seem to have the same room no matter what bed we're in!

If you want to spend any decent amount of time in your camper then scrimping on the bed is a complete waste of time as it will cut the amount of time you spend in it. You need a bed with something like the comfort of your own home mattress which generally means a mattress in the 100mm range with the full length of a standard bed. In such a bed you will sleep as well as you do at home - which sets you up for long stays out and good tempers all round. Compromise in any way and you will want to go home after a few days. Also be careful about your foam choice, we found our first camper was to hard with a medium foam (blue foam) mattress which I suspect is only recommended as it compensates for people underspecing the thickness. Some combination of memory foam and medium hardness foam is ideal, but failing that a full 100mm of soft foam is best.

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122553183#Comment_122553183

yes panel to panel not much difference .. the promaster/boxer/relay just edge it I think again

This guys does commercial conversions and might give @memaul some ideas on the pro's and cons of each form factor

https://youtu.be/CuNIqk9Wqrk?si=lAXAAtRMKjYk88kL&t=257

traco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579301#Comment_122579301

Good find.

I think the Ducato and Renault etc from the french are more square in shape so that's also a benefit. Its all a trade of between width, length and roof height and the layout you want. Then of course there is the base price of the van at similar ages and mileage.

As for ease of kits and info I would think you will find most parts and info for the French contingent with the German Merc and VW next. The newer Mk8 Transit would have the least amount of off the shelf items and info in Europe based on my casual research.

Most cost effective option would be the French models (Fiat Ducato, Renault Master, Opel Movano, Peugeot Boxer) as they are all the same body and I think its a galvanised unit so better for corrosion.

Macy0161

Definitely the most off the shelf stuff for Boxer/ Ducato/ Relay from my own research.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122580662#Comment_122580662

Aye, European popularity drives that.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122580951#Comment_122580951

Even down to small bits and pieces on Ali!