Inverter won't power on, fireman switch light flashing

Gerry

System installed 2 years, saj inverter, projoy fireman switch.

A month ago the system stopped working, the breaker on the fuseboard did not trip. Off and on for the breaker had no effect. Got on to installer, they advised turning the rotary ac isolator next to inverter off and on, leaving it off a few minutes. This did work. heard the fireman switch activate

Gone again a few days ago and I've just noticed it this morning.

the same procedure has had no effect.

Fireman switch red light is flashing, and with switching on and off the ac, hearing nothing from the switch, which is different. Thinking this points to fireman switch fault, I guess it could be panels either.. dont know how smart that switch is.

Manual for the switch has no troubleshooting info. I've gotten on to the installer but with bank holiday expecting nothing today. Anyway wondering if anyone has had similar. Thanks

graememk

Likely the fireman switch has failed, I've heard of them failing before.

The light on mine is steady on, not flashing

rob w

Takes a couple of seconds for the switch to reset as far as I know once it's power cycled. But sounds like there may be an issue with the switch....loose connection, faulty unit maybe.

Is there anything else between the AC board and fireman's switch, like an emergency stop button?

Gerry

There is a fairly normal looking switch with a light on it. Tried switching that off, makes no odds, and the projoy light keeps flashing either way. It also flashes with the ac isolator off. so it must be powered from the dc or has a backup battery. I see another thread here with a faulty projoy, they bypassed it to prove it, but need a special tool to get the connectors unplugged

graememk

No backup battery or dc power afaik, but could just be residual power from the power supply capacitors.

It is similar to a zone valve in a heating system, but it's a switch, power off it should whirr and then you'd hear the spring loaded switch open,

Does the same on turning on too, DC switches need to operate fast to prevent arcing

Gerry

Yeah I'd expect it do that even with the panels faulty, and theres not a jig out of it. I don't know if anyone is going to recommend bypassing it but I know it isn't strictly necessary.

deezell

Projoy switch is an active switch, it disconnects panels during a power outage or if you disconnect the inverter. I'd imagine it should automatically reconnect the panels, but perhaps automatic reconnect wasn't configured, assuming its an option. The blinking light might the clue. The fact you can read logs means the inverter is booted up at control level using the incoming mains. You should be able to read the absence of DC panel voltage if the fireman switch has tripped and not reset.

Gerry

Eventually came back on. The inverter shows grid faults from when it stopped producing power on Thursday, but I can't see any evidence of a power failure, the other inverter which is wired separately did not drop out at the same time. I will see what the installer says.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466241#Comment_122466241

There's no configuration, you give it power it closes it's switch, remove power it opens it.

It sounds like a zone valve when operating (especially the whirr when it is turned off)

Will be no errors on the inverter, as all it's concerned is that it's dark and it has no power on the DC

Gerry

The inverter dropped out several times on Thursday. It came back after about 15 minutes a few times and then stayed off. Each is logged as grid failure. No other errors. But the other pv system kept generating. as you can see from screenshot of HA. The times correspond exactly. I'm not sure if the fireman switch dropping out would be logged in this way.

To be clear earlier the inverter would not power on at all. no lights, nothing. I could not read logs until it came back.

As for connections I've poked with an insulated screwdriver the wires on the fusebox.. all seems ok.

I've read the projoy manual and it is useless, no troubleshooting section.

Thursday was a sunny day and I think something isnt happy under full load.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466454#Comment_122466454

Were you at home at that point (of grid failure)

Grid failure is the power going off, either an RCD trip or the whole power going off.

Was the power blinking?

I'll go look at mine later to make sure there's no buttons on the projoy, but could be the case of the power going on and off eventually killed it

slave1

Bypass the Projoy, you don't need it, it is only required for grant purposes

Gerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466542#Comment_122466542

was not home, but there was no grid failure. other separate pv setup on other roof was producing all along.

Yeah I don't think the switch should be behaving in this way. I might see if I can trigger the issue by switching off the ac to the fireman switch and then see what the inverter logs

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122467483#Comment_122467483

If there was no actual grid failure it could point towards a faulty connection on the AC, enough to cut out the power to the inverter and thus also the fireman switch.

Id make sure to mention that to the solar guys, I'd be having a look at the AC isolator and also all other connections.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122465627#Comment_122465627

The projoy is an active switch, it says on their site that it trips when the mains to the inverter is interrupted. It should reset automatically, but perhaps it hasn't been configured to do so. As you can read logs, your inverter is functioning at the mains level, so you should be able to monitor the panel DC in, or the lack of it. The flashing light on the projoy probably indicates that it disconnected the panels, and hasn't reset.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122468842#Comment_122468842

Heads up, thread has been started here.

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058362950/inverter-wont-power-on-fireman-switch-light-flashing

I've had two failed ProJoys. The flashing means it is in fault and open. Bypass the switch by disconnecting the panels and inverter from it and joining the cables together. Make sure you identify which panel string is which and which is the -ve and +ve side. Connect appropriate cables from panels to inverter.

I did that whilst waiting for installer to install new ProJoy. Next time, I will permanently bypass the AmMisery.

Gerry

thanks all. as I had predicted, this has happened again today as power got towards a peak. I wouldn't rule out a wiring issue alright but it all looks very secure.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122470099#Comment_122470099

Did you get it running again?

Gerry

I will see if the installer returns my calls today if not I'll bypass the projoy and see if that can be ruled in or out.

I should add I did cut the ac to the projoy, and it did work but this did not log a grid lost error in the inverter. So that makes me hesitant to say that this is all the projoys fault.

it did behave as I'd expect, when I cut the power in this way and restored it.

Whereas otherwise, this shows as a loss of generation for 15-25 minutes.

Gerry

no, was at office. Will see about bypassing the projoy this evening. Installer calling Thursday. thanks again for all the help and advice here folks

Gerry

Well, another update.. this evening went up to find no red lights on, so no power supply to fireman switch. all off. but a slight smell.. checked fuseboard and it had not tripped. So that left.. yes.. the ac isolator which was on. switched off at fuseboard and tried turning the isolator, it feels eh, reluctant and broken to be honest. definite smell of some magic smoke having left it.

not very good for that to have failed after 2 years, could have been worse I suppose. hope it hasn't damaged anything else in the process of failing.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122471638#Comment_122471638

Sounds like a loose connection in the AC isolator, and now it's burned out, should be a simple case of replacing the isolator.

Gerry

yeah maybe. not going opening it myself, will leave it to the installer. an easy swap out ok.

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122471806#Comment_122471806

Looks like you have two separate faults. The damage to the ProJoy switch is due to it being cycled too many times, which they don't like.

I had a similar but unrelated ProJoy problem in that the inverter firmware (not updated) would reboot the entire system, every sunrise (if off-grid) and then restart, only to reboot again. Eventually, the ProJoy stopped working.

Your inverter might be rebooting and causing the ProJoy to lose power multiple times, causing it damage. That or something else is causing the ProJoy to lose power long enough to switch off.

For my system the firmware upgrade solved the problem. You probably have a different issue but it can't hurt to look for the firmware version in the inverter menu and check with the manufacturer that it is reasonably up to date. Mine was still in beta, which wasn't acceptable, as it meant the inverter was not using the battery to run itself at night but drawing far too much power from the grid. Hence my going off-grid, every night, and cycling the ProJoy, which damaged it.

Gerry

Yeah I wouldn't be ruling out damage to the projoy due to the repeated cycling. I don't think it is an inverter firmware issue as it was fine for nearly 2 years. But it is still possible that the inverter has caused issues for the other components.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122466869#Comment_122466869

That's not true, it's an electrical regulation.

GarlicBed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122474522#Comment_122474522

How does your inverter control the projoy ?

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478263#Comment_122478263

Not directly. If there's a power cut then the ProJoy's internal timer will countdown a few seconds and then go to the open state. If you can switch to the back-up circuit before that then the ProJoy won't go open. If there is one of those microsecond power cuts then the ProJoy doesn't cycle at all.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478665#Comment_122478665

Then how did the inverter restart cause the projoy to cycle? The projoy is just connected to the grid?

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122478676#Comment_122478676

In my case, that was the Beta firmware forcing me to go off-grid overnight because the inverter wouldn't use the battery to power itself when the Sun was down. In the morning, when the Sun rose and the panels started producing power, because the changeover switch was in the off-grid position, there was no grid power. The Beta firmware couldn't do it's morning wake-up routine without grid power so the system would shutdown with an Earth fault and the ProJoy was another cycle closer to failure.

That's all stopped with the new firmware. No need to go off-grid to avoid excessive grid use overnight. The inverter runs off the battery. I've not tried to run it off-grid since to see if the Earth fault still happens. The inverter uses the battery at night and not 1KW of grid power so I'm happy. There are no Earth issues in the house. The original firmware was in error on all fronts.

That was a year and half a go. No problems since. It was coming to this forum to learn how to use Home Assistant that made me realise the fault was software and not hardware. For 6 months the installers had changed everything; hardware, panels and cables to no effect. I couldn't get HA to work without a firmware update and that cured the problem.

I don't know the details of the OP's inverter problems but I'd say power is being cut (be it grid or inverter) by a fault in the inverter and the ProJoy is timing out.

irishchris

I would start with testing the ac isolator to see it's contacts haven't failed especially if like you said you had switched it quite often before to cure it. They are cheap and easy to replace if it is. Secondly test the ac breaker.

Do you have picture of ac supply to the projoy/inverter. Is it on the same ac supply as to the inverter?

Gerry

The ac isolator had indeed failed. it is a split feed, one to inverter, one to fireman switch. the feed wire to the fireman switch had burning on that contact. and melting around the side of the isolator nearest that contact. This is on the upper side of the switch as installed.

When the issue occurred, both feeds were affected.

The switch was only rotated 3 times, and only after the issue had already occurred. So that won't be it.

It is hard to say whether a bad wire connection was the cause or an effect. Inclined to say it was the effect.

That feed to the fireman switch does not carry much current, just enough to run the switch and tell it that the grid is there.

The issue seemed to occur under heavy load only, which would be on the main feed to/from inverter.

So I do think it is most likely to be the switch itself.

But that does not fill me with confidence. The installers electrician fitted the same type of switch ( garo lb225 ) as that is all he had with him.

2 years is not a long time installed and I don't have confidence as to whether this could happen again. I will contact the installer again.

bunderoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483684#Comment_122483684

Would have thought a 32A AC switch was the norm for most installations. Bigger contacts to manage the current.

Gerry

so, this installation is pretty small to be fair. 13.5 amps is the peak this is going to see, and 11 for any period of time. So thats plenty of margin.. you'd think.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122484203#Comment_122484203

100%

graememk

Likely more like a loose connection, or a failure in the screw terminal (they can be put too tight too!)

Not the AC isolator contacts themselves.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122483684#Comment_122483684

I have a very similar issue this week and am live 2 years too. My inverters shows as having an AC feed (and I can login to the inverter dashboard so it is online), but it has no DC feed. Do people think that's the same issue that the AC isolator is dead?

That AC isolator has likely been turned off 3 times ever. The inverter seems to stop working after the highest ever production - could that be related?

I've 2 inverters and the other is fine so I'm assuming it's not the fireman switch. It's in the attic and I've never seen it (attic is hard to get into) - but I'd assume it's ok as 1 of 2 inverters is ok.

Gerry

If you can login to the inverter it still has ac supply. But seems might be an issue with fireman switch.

Gerry

sure, except the

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122484601#Comment_122484601

why would a loose connection be ok for 2 years though. and this connection sees very little power.

some of the other wires did show heat though not to the same extent. The electrician trimmed or replaced them all. I think the supply to fireman switch took the brunt as it is on top of the switch.

The electrician did say that some of these switches do fail, and that is the part that I have issue with. I will be getting a higher rated switch installed.

graememk

Was it the neutral by any chance?

Things can be fine, maybe a little arc here and there, but the arcs get bigger.. starts to get inconsistent. And like the fella says things fail.

(Called it though as soon as you said you were getting grid failure alarms!)

Gerry

Yep, the neutral. That still doesnt line up with it dropping out under high load. the ac current to the fireman switch will be constant. the current through the main contacts will not be constant, it will increase. And the power was cut completely, not just to the fireman switch. I simulated by just powering off the fireman switch and got nothing in inverter logs. so to me the switch itself is still the most likely failure mode.