Slow Play again

Dbu

Slow Play has become a real problem in our club and seems to be getting worse.

Years ago, it was always blamed on the older guys, but now the juniors and juveniles seem to be going the same way.

If you are not out before 8am, you could be almost 5 hours out there….

Has your club been successful in tacking same? Our committee are looking to gather ideas from members

newport2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361945/slow-play-again

Same with ours, hence I'm usually out first or second. Sunday's particularly bad.

I wouldn't blame any particular group, there's slow players young and old, low and high handicaps.

One of the issues we face in tackling it is that some of the slowest players in the club are on the committee…..

willabur

the only solution is course rangers, not very practical though

animajic

This is maybe a bit of a tangent but I tend to play as a solo quite a bit (usually at quieter times like evenings and late afternoons on the weekends) and I catch up with groups quite a bit enough, not that I'm racing around but I'm going at average pace. More often than not for whatever reason I am rarely asked if I want to play through and can be waiting on every shot for nearly every hole of a round. There are plenty that do let me play through but also I encounter more that just don't bother or maybe think to ask.

I get if you're in a comp or there's groups ahead of them too, but that's rarely the case.

Whelo7688

You can most times pin-point the players who will be slow. We had an issue at the weekend of standing around at nearly every tee-box and we teed off before 8am. A 3 ball had fallen about a hole and a half behind after 5 holes.

Very frustrating when the club knows who the culprits are but nothing is done.

Russman

Honestly, from what I've seen in the last year or so, its much more of an entitled attitude of "I've paid my money, I'll take as long as I like…….", that, and the slowest players never actually think they're slow or that whats is slow play is in fact, slow.

The debate usually ends up with people suggesting simple ways to move faster being accused of wanting to "run" around the course bla, bla. Its fairly simple though, be ready to hit when its your shot and leave your bag in the correct place for walking off the green.

Communication is probably the only thing a club can do, put up signs on, say, the 7th tee with time target(s) for 6 holes, 10th tee for 9 holes etc and hope that maybe 1 player in a group is aware and notices and encourages his group to move along.

I think I've seen or heard of some clubs doing something with the computer and checking in where times are published or time limites are used, honeslty can't remember but I'm sure I've heard a discussion about using sign-in and score entry times as a tool.

coillcam

Slow play, divots and pitch marks are always problems. It's rare to have a comp less than 4h15m in a 4ball in my local. 4h30m is slow but relatively normal for a medal when balls are going astray.

I don't think there's anything you can do but keep reminding members through emails, signs and taking individual ownership. The onus is on members to police it themselves within whatever groups they land in. When I say police I mean encourage better behaviour.

There was a funny car park argument between two senior golfers not too long ago in my club. One told the other (who was one group ahead) quite plainly that he was slow and needed to pick up the pace (post round). He took umbrage to the accusation and kicked off. There wasn't anything physical but it got testy. Easy to see it happen with some personalities. Both lads are decent tbf just proud of their convictions.

If you take on a discussion like this with some individuals during a round/comp you can be made out to be at mind games or putting someone off. Similar to the barny in the previous paragraph, people generally avoid confrontations where possible. I keep it as simple as saying we've lost a hole or 1/2 a hole on the group ahead and need to move along or step aside for the next group.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441529#Comment_122441529

Reading greens like DJ/Berger or a million Harman pre-shot waggles is clearly a pain in the hole but it's rare.

However, I disagree entirely with your take on rangefinders - it takes about 3s to grab a laser and tag the flag. Add 1-2s more if you zap a bunker etc. If anyone has a GPS watch/cart it's the same story and not all clubs have colour-coded Front/Middle/Back flags. Amateur golfers won't hit the ball flush 100% of the time and you guessed it… They'll often end up short. I'm very much in the camp of letting someone take a couple of seconds extra to lock in a committed shot. They're far less likely to rush the strike into cabbage and slow up play... if you wanted to stand over everyone with a stopwatch they.

The biggest time wasters are simple and some are easy to speed up: Talking and not being ready > leaving clubs in the wrong place > marking cards standing on a green after putting > and ridiculous ceremonial pre-shot routines. Rangefinders/GPS are not even in the ball park.

FixdePitchmark

Not ready to hit

Slow routines

And general bullshit that goes on, on greens ..making very very very little difference to outcome , has almost driven me away from this game ...well.4 balls in particular.

All rounds should be below 4 hours [ or just over ] .but amateurs and Irish in particular..have gone way too deep taking this game way too seriously. People think they are pros in a bog standard event.

Something has gone a bit wrong with whs , lifestyle changes and general golf culture in Ireland.

But, you can always find the same minded golf and group that suits you

There are other formats of golf...but Irish have a mad relationship with golf...

spacecoyote

WHS definitely an extra contributor to the problem.

Old system, with a cap of 28 shots meant even the worst golfers were picking up a little earlier.

Now people with in some cases 3 shots on holes.

4-balls are part of the problem, my place plays 3-balls in all singles comps at the weekends, and would be rare for a medal to go beyond a 4hr round, even when playing with someone shooting 110+

Agree that common sense stuff is actually a big part of it. Ready golf, play a little out of sequence if needed. Hit your shot, then help your partner look for a ball. Park in the right spots at the green. No need to stand on the green and take the card out to mark it straight away, you can get to the next tee box and do it.

One thing I do that helps is I have laser and GPS. If I've hit it further than playing partners and can't go to my ball. I'll laser from their spot and move the flag on the green on my GPS to that distance so when I get to my ball, I can just quickly check the GPS and its already showing the correct distance.

My biggest bug-bear these days isn't so much around pace as it is around maintenance. Pitch mark repairs, yes, but my place seems to have gone ridiculous for people not raking bunkers when they're done, it's infuriating.

BrianD3

Leaving clubs in the wrong place, standing around marking cards etc. - those are or should be easy to sort. i think the problems are more fundamental and relate to how far lads hit the ball combined with the shot and distance penalty for a lost ball.

There are a considerable number of mediocre and bad golfers these days who can hit the ball a long way. Short par 4s are within reach. Also, in my club, 30 years ago, the best and longest player in the club was hitting driver-3 wood to the longest par 5. Now, there are a number of 10-20 handicappers who can hit driver-4 iron or driver-5 iron. They'll wait for the green to clear - then likely spray the ball into trees or rough. They don't fall behind the group in front because the group in front is having the same issues on the next hole.

If someone is hitting 200 yard drives and the clubface is off by x degrees, they might be on the edge of the fairway. if someone else is off by the same degrees and hitting 250 yards, it could be a lost ball.

Imagine how slow the pros would be if they didn't have volunteers in the vicinity of where their balls were landing to scurry over and find them.

Break80

Had this issue last week. 4 ball in front lost nearly 2 holes after 6 holes.

Experienced golfers but known to be slow. We had a 2 ball behind us and 4 balls backing up behind them. One of our 4 ball said it to 1 of them as we were walking up to the green.

The answer he got was "we are going fine, ye need to slow down"

Where do you go from there?

In fairness they kinda caught up for a while but fell back again by the end of the round.

CalamariFritti

Not in our place. Last week 4ball in 3:40 in our weekly open comp and the course was pretty full. Open comp can often be slower due to visitors, but thats fair I think when someone doesnt know the course. We do have one of the lads going around in a cart during open days though and I think that helps.

Sundays are 3balls anyway and it's hardly ever more than 3:40. Maybe on medal/strokes days but most of the time not even then. Our membership is fairly hardcore on pace. If you fall back a hole on a Sunday you'll be told in no uncertain terms.

token56

I'm quite lucky that by default our course has people go out in 3 balls unless the competition format requires 4 balls. 4 hours would be a long round at mine, 3:30 is generally achievable. Playing in other courses where it takes 4+ hours feels like torture to me to be honest. I don't know how people would do it week in week out.

fungie

A 3 hour four-ball. I'll what's he's having.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447168#Comment_122447168

A fourball in just over 3 hours is ridiculously quick. You'd have to be consciously trying to play as fast as possible to achieve that.

blue note

I remember in my junior days we'd get around the 18 in 3 hours in threeballs. But once we got into the adult comps it was fourballs and closer to four hours was the norm. But back then, the course was shorter, people weren't hitting it as far (so not finding trouble as often), there was less trouble to find - smaller and fewer bunkers, less water. I'd say if we went back to the old courses with the old equipment we'd have similar length rounds. Although the one thing I wonder is - have golfers gotten older? Because on average we don't get faster with age. I'd hazard a guess, that's added 15 minutes to rounds too.

If you can avoid getting worked up over it, that's the best action. Within reason, a round being a bit slow isn't the worst thing in the world. If you're rushing to get somewhere after, you're a fool for not factoring in the round potentially being slow. Obviously when rounds start getting closer to 5 hours it's a different story.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447168#Comment_122447168

Tbf 3hrs is seriously rapid going, I've only seen that sort of pace in a singles match or casual 2-3 ball on a handful of times. The fastest lads in my club are 1 group of older gents who played the course 1000's of times. They have the club in hand walking up to every tee position and distance marker as it's automatic for them. They ask one question every so often which is, does the "yoke" (laser) say front or back pin? Only one of them is capable of hitting it 200+ yds. Each shot is 150-180yds in play, rarely in any trouble and then a short wedge/chip. Autopilot golf and the consistency is seriously impressive.

The ball gets hit in <5s and the trolley is almost moving before the backswing finishes. If you ask them post round how it went, it's 95% of the time followed with this same answer: "Shite, too slow took more than 4 hours". They're unhappy if a round is >3h45m which is every round where they're not out in the first two groups.

I agree there's now a large element of youtube/PGA coverage embedded into the game along with manufacturers feeding into it. Most sports aren't immune to this type of change. Even 5aside has been full of it for a good while… €200 flashy boots and lads trying moves outta fifa off their playstation. Most who never played a real match in their life.

FixdePitchmark

2 hour 25 for 9 holes today .

Crazy stuff, I know summer golfers out and rough is up.

I was kinda watching everything...lads genuinely on their summer holidays ..not in any rush

But Look, maybe they are right and will have a long happy life.

Summer golf just has a different vibe...

bobster453

Whats the hurry?

If you got to rush off somewhere you shouldnt be playing as its in your head.

Granted 5 hours is mad for a game.4 to 4.15 is normal.

Relax..enjoy the scenery..listen to the birds.

Life is too short to be rushing around.

It will still be there when you finish

benny79

I think 4 balls can be main issue

Then leaving bag at far side of green (easy fix)

and people looking for balls (nobody I see abides by 3 minute rule here!

I agree with Fix, us Irish take are golf way to seriously!

blue note

I'd love a practicable idea for enforcing the 3 minutes. I've seen outrageous searches for balls. But unless you've timed it you can't really call it.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122451216#Comment_122451216

In principal I agree with that sentiment. I think there is an overdoing this 'slow play' agitation thing. You're there to play a ball game and enjoy being outdoors and not try to find fault over every little thing. Some people act like they cant get quick enough off the course. In some cases I suspect thats actually true. As in can't wait to get to the 19th. ;)

But if you're permanently waiting, thinking what are those people in front of us doing?, then it can be become a nuisance quickly.

There is a good middle ground.

soverybored1878

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122451467#Comment_122451467

Exactly this. There is a middle ground. You can't go out on a Saturday/Sunday early doors and expect to get round in 3hrs 30. but there are people who can take the piss.

I played a comp last week and it was 4hrs 40. Not ideal but you have to plan for it and enjoy it as best you can. It's difficult to keep focus if you're waiting on the tee or in the fairway for a few minutes but getting angry about it will make that even worse.

We're lucky to be able to play this game and I love it so I'm going to make the most of it, enjoy being outside and meeting new people. At least that's how I see it.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122451691#Comment_122451691

I agree there's definitely a middle ground alright, I suppose finding it is the issue ! Personally, I think 4hr 40m is totally off the wall, literally no excuse for it. I get that there's a bigger picture and we're talking about 1st world problems, but I can't see why sub 4hrs isn't easily achievable almost all the time. Its not like that's particularly quick or that anyone would have to "rush" to get round in under 4hrs.

There's also perception too I find. I've had rounds that have felt like we casually strolled around, totally taking our time and it was 3hr 15m or something, and I've had rounds that were close to 4h and felt like we were moving well. Even how you're playing will impact on how you feel about the pace of play.

willabur

like everyone else we have the same problem in our place.

A couple of months ago I was 2 groups behind one of the guys who I know to be particularly slow. We ran into the log jam around the 7th hole. By the time we got to the 10th we were able to see over alot of the course. The offending group were putting on the 11th with the group in front teeing off on the 14th. I recorded the positions of the various groups and times, then did the same when we were playing the 14th we could see there was a group playing the 18th and the offending group was teeing off on the 15th. Send it all into the committee who in turn sent out letters to the offending group.

They just blamed each other, would not take any responsibility at all themselves.

So even when confronted with clear, independent evidence of slow play they would not accept that they were the problem

tayto lover

Lads who's drives went 230 yards waiting on the green to clear even though they're 350 yards out.

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122452560#Comment_122452560

Yep.

Thankfully I dont have that problem

ReadyGolf is my middle name.

No fear of me overshooting a green so no sense in trying😄

CONSI

I've played up to Par 5's, knowing I wont make it, coming up 30/40 yards short, only for the group on the green to wait beside the green so they can give out to me for playing up while they were on the green. I knew I wasnt getting there but still complained and waited for me to do so..

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122453276#Comment_122453276

I usually ask them which of them hit the green in 2, knowing that none of them did and then laugh out loud.

BraveDonut

I see a lot of the issue is that groups that have lost ground on the group in front of them simply do not take action to pick up the pace.
"Eh, we've fallen behind lads and need to pick it up" - Ignored!

Infoseeker1975

Most golfers play their home course 90+% of the time, there should be no need to look at a putt from 4 angles & only start the process when it is your turn, all for a €20 voucher!!

Our course plays singles in 4s and it is torture if you are out after 9am.

I play off 0.1 though not a scratch player in real terms with this new system & I do not think shooting 70 or 90 makes a difference.

The things for me that do make a difference are:

Ready golf, no phones especially when your score is gone, it is 3 mins for a lost ball - several times in the last year I have been in a scenario where a playing partner found his ball at least 5 mins after he arrived at the area where the ball was deemed to have landed.

FixdePitchmark

A big issue for golf post covid and in the general economy.

People are living lives of pleasure and have nowhere to go in reality..

Golf is still dominated by 4 balls..invitationals and senior events.

And you know what , fair play to them .

But how is that compatible with growing the game and having a younger wider golfer profile.

Was out with a guy who is new to the game and from a GAA background with a young family.

To see the realisation in him that between getting to club early say 20 mins before, as required ..a 2.5 hr 9 hole and the travelling to course it was all going ro take 3.5 hours...he was just having a big moment with his golf relationship.

I know there are people here who want a slow life and head in clouds.

But that is off the wall stuff.

There might have to be lifestyle part of the timesheet. Just 2 hours ..3 balls ..People who know how to get around a course...

And let the men of leasure have their Roman lifestyles .

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122453276#Comment_122453276

The more people wait for greens to clear and the more they see the pros doing it, the more this becomes embedded in golf culture. Then when someone does play their second shot on a par 5 and lands 40 yards short of the green, the group on the green think "that fcuker would have skulled us if he had hit it 40 yards further". Or else you are "putting them under pressure" and you'll be standing 40 yards away with your hands on your hips glaring at them while they lie down on the green. Or else they'll, again aping the primadonnas on tour, regard the sound of a ball landing 40 yards away as distracting them from the very serious business of holing out for their triple bogey.

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122453738#Comment_122453738

Men of leisure..Roman lifestyles..dont know too many of them.

All the above posts contain key ways to speed up..trolleys in right area..mark card while waiting to tee off..etc.

Stuff that has been done for years.

All comes down to one thing..Respect for others on the course.

Not being so selfish..is selfish a modern trait I wonder?

John_Rambo

I'm not a golfer. But is this just life now? I'm not sure if it's a post covid thing but…

People blocking an aisle in a supermarket, knowingly and not giving a sheet.
People queuing up for food and then deciding what they want when they reach the end… "em… what will I have now…"
Car drivers stopping for a chat with a line of cars behind them.
Cyclists or tractors not bothering to pull in to let traffic head off.

I see it in my sport too. Careless, unhelpful actions with a "he can wait, I'm doing my thing now" attitude. I actually had to run up and tell someone to help in an emergency as they were looking on like it was happening on TV.

ShivasIrons

Looking at all the comments here there is only one focus, which is on player behaviour, however there are multiple reasons behind slow play so multiple solutions are required.

The main reason behind slow play is the number of golfers on the golf course, too many people on the golf course means slow play no matter what else is happening. The way to regulate it is how far the tee times are apart, a minimum of 8 minutes for 2 balls, 10 minutes for 3 balls and 12 minutes for 4 balls, the group in front should be putting out or finished on a medium length par 4 before the group behind plays. The perfect example of this was the tee time spread in covid, golfers were flying around the course with no one in front of them. The problem is that golfers focus on when they start, rather than when they finish so courses go back to too little times between groups. What's better teeing off at 10:00 and finishing at 2:30 or teeing off at 10:30 and finishing at 2:30?

The other reasons are player behaviour, which everyone talks about but no one does anything about, set up of the course, i.e. long rough, difficult hole locations, fast greens, long walks between greens and tees and finally player ability, poorer players take longer from tee to green, better players take longer on the greens.

The solutions to slow play are, increase tee time intervals, don't have long rough, don't have the greens too fast, set an expected time for the course, which will vary from course to course, and educate players. Educating players means talking to the individuals who are slow, tell them the reasons why they are slow and warning them to speed up. Funnily enough, tell a fast player they are behind and they will catch up, tell a slow player they're behind and they will argue they aren't slow.

The information is out there to speed up play, it's not difficult to find, nor implement, however clubs aren't great at finding solutions and I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting on clubs to solve this any time soon.

BoardsMember

We have clocks on the tee boxes in our place. The start time is the time on the clocks on every tee. Based on round time of 4 hours 10 mins (or so so). So when ur on a tee u should see ur start tee time. If it's earlier then you're ahead. It's very clever. It hasnt helped much!

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122462507#Comment_122462507

We have signs telling you that you should be here as a 4ball, 3ball etc in X amount of time. They pass no heed to them.

Golfgraffix

We built a pace of play monitor into the ClubNet app. It’s still in beta but any club that would like to test are more than welcome to take it FOC.

We have one club that have made it a condition of competition. Not sure on its own if it speeds up play but the reporting shows where and who are the bottle necks.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122462519#Comment_122462519

I think you've actually hit the nail on the head, the slow guys simply just don't give a f—k. The default mindset is its golf, it takes a long time, you're out for the day anyway etc etc.

Thinking about it though, there could be a downside to those signs and targets if the target is too easily achievable. You'd potentially have guys thinking anything goes as long as they're within the time limits. I know as a junior I was always told your place on the course is immediately behind the group in front of you, not immediately in front of the group behind you.

For such a simple problem its also complicated. For example yesterday we played early in one of the first few groups out. There was a group in front of us who normally play mid-morning and wouldn't be thought of, and aren't, slow players. Yet we had to wait on almost every tee and a lot of second shots. Not long to be fair and it wasn't a big deal at all. The round felt a lot longer than normal and felt very slow, but when I ended the round on my Shotscope it was 3hrs 57m for a fourball, so in reality it wasn't really that slow a round at all. Probably about 15 mins longer than most weeks, yet the perception of that extra say, minute, per hole, was that it took ages. Admitedly we were playing rubbish and spent a lot of time looking for balls, so it gave some breathing space for us not to be right on top of the guys ahead. That group in front of us lost almost 3 holes on the group in front of them, so were they slow ? Under 4 hours says no, but losing 2/3 holes maybe suggests arguably.

Bottom line, the will isn't there to solve it. Nobody is going to fall out with someone they may be quite friendly with over 15 minutes on the course.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122462732#Comment_122462732

Thank you! I'd love to see this become a norm. I'm sure no-one in a group will ever claim personal responsibility, but even some collective responsibility could help things.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122462732#Comment_122462732

I'd imagine Boards GS would be happy to be guinea pigs for you @Golfgraffix if it would help with building data, etc...

SodiumCooled

There is very slow play (like pushing 5 hours) but I think this expectation of running around the course is as bad - I don’t find it enjoyable rushing around and it’s not conducive to playing well (for me anyway). People are entitled to take a practice swing and plan their shots too or read a putt, not sure where this expectation of arriving at your ball club in hand and hitting immediately comes from sure there is no enjoyment in that.

I think most people are happy enough to be around in 4 - 4:30 hours (for a 4 ball), if you are so tight on time an extra 20 or 30 mins is an issue then you are cutting it tight going in the first place. Im not excusing absolute blatant over the top slowness either but I think the middle ground has to be accepted.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122463128#Comment_122463128

I think this fair enough.

But it is regular enough for 3 lads to hit and a slow type player be at their ball ..even away from.ball no even club in hand . Then they start their distance thing just then..

Same on greens ..guys standing miles from ball and start reading after he is ready . Then there are times nobody is doing literally anything..you literally have to tell.them they are up or need to do **** something...

Then the perpetua last to hit off tee lad. Doesn't even have a driver out.

Even after everyone has gone.

Then slow walk lads that drop say 70 yards behind just walking 250 yards.

What use are they to anyone..particularly a 4 ball.

Don't get me started on daft routines...

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122462785#Comment_122462785

While I all for doing something but mandating installing a 3rd party app on personal devices that tracks the device (individual or groups) is totally unacceptable on sooooooo many levels. I'd argue on the legality too.

Happy enough to carry a tag/device supplied by the club but no one should mandate you to install an app on your personal device. Too many questions to be asked about what info it's capturing, where is it stored or shared, what 3rd party dependencies etc… are used and are they secure (supply chain attacks). Most of upcoming cyber security EU legislation will effectively make this kind of app non-compliant or too costly to implement secure I would suspect.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122463257#Comment_122463257

Yes I think everyone should be doing the simple things as you say, bags correct side of the green, not marking cards on the green, making an effort to get to your ball quickly etc. it’s more the expectation of top speed throughout a round I was getting at.

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122463257#Comment_122463257

@FixdePitchmark when you are old and decrepit..way way in the future..will you hang up your golfing shoes rather than be viewed as an auld slow lad?😃

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122463551#Comment_122463551

I play with lots of auld guys as you say ....but they are an absolute credit to themselves.

Know how to get around a golf course ..have experience and wisdom. No daft routines , And certainly are not miles from.their ball with no club..

Likes of aimpount , they wouldn't tolerate..

And they also call each other out and it doesn't turn into ...how dare you question me and I'm "entitled " to spend as long as I like here ..because I'm important..and my time is my special time...**** everyone else...

Any time I play with them..it is 4 hours for 4 balls over 18.

This idea that golf should ever be over 4 hours , is a pure modern creation of entitlement.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122463128#Comment_122463128

Of course a middle ground should be there, but I don't think anyone has argued for rushing or running around the course though. For me, that's where the slow play debate falls apart in a way. 3hrs 45m - 4hrs is not running round on most courses. I know obviously on certain courses or in certain situations/conditions times will vary, but personally I think if someone finds 4hrs or just under to be rushing, they're doing something wrong. You certainly don't need to cut out practice swings or reading putts or need to have club in hand approaching the ball to be round in 4 hrs IMHO.

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122463602#Comment_122463602

Yea I gotta admit the whole world is gone mad with rights and entitlements.

To me the only thing you are entitled to is the respect of others when you treat them with respect.

Fair play is good sport and all that.