Merge Irish Defence Forces and An Garda Siochana

Soc_Alt

To me it's time we merge Irish Defence Forces and An Garda Siochana together.

The dog on the street knows Irish Defence Forces couldn't protect Ireland from external threats but they do have the benefit of providing better fitness, training and structure to what is currently An Garda Siochana.

When then might get an Elitely trained police force in Ireland.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361528/merge-irish-defence-forces-and-an-garda-siochana

Do you mean armed Gardai as a matter of course? I think it will eventually head that way.

I always have admired how Ireland has managed to have a state with law and order without the need for armed Gardai. Only the special branch armed section brought in on occasion.

But in Ireland these days there are gougers with guns/syringes and so on but the Gardai (for the most part) only have pepper spray/cameras. That imbalance won't be able to continue for too long.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428601#Comment_122428601

We could of course merge the army with Gardai and disarm the army 🤷🏻‍♂️.

spillit67

They fufill different functions.

The defense forces should not be in day to day interaction with the public save for exceptional circumstances. I think it’s pretty clear internationally why this is a problem.

Our police force have their issues but it is historically ignorant to not see how their establishment as an unarmed police force has led to a stable and liberal democracy.

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428642#Comment_122428642

Why

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428679#Comment_122428679

Which one.

Isthisthingon?

This is a 100% Genuine question and is not meant as a P*sstake but Excluding the troops that go on UN peace keeping missions and the Bomb Squad what does the Army actually do?

Correct me if I'm wrong but they no longer provide the armed escorts to/ from the banks for cash deliveries, They are being taken out of portlaoise prison as the risk is no longer there ( something I did not know they did).

The last time I saw them on active duty was helping people in the floods in Midleton.

Aside from that its Paddy's day parades or driving trucks/ jeeps up the M9.

To repeat - not a dig at anyone in the forces - genuine interest in what the sitting army is doing, happy to be corrected

Soc_Alt

It would increase our police force by 7000. All future police force members would get training from both Templemore and Army Barracks around the country leading to a more elite police setup with multiple units.

CookingGuy

Doesn't seem very well thought out, and there's a reason it's never been done anywhere else.

"they do have the benefit of providing better fitness, training and structure to what is currently An Garda Siochana."

According to who? The Irish army isn't well known for being well trained, they're better know as producing a wide assortment of criminals, as a Google search of "Irish army/soldier court" will show.

The Irish army should be scrapped, they'd last pissing time against any well equipped and determined force, their personnel should be offered a generous redundancy or the chance to join the Navy/Air Corp (after rigourous background checks and drug tests), speaking of which, both of those organisations should be merged together along with the coast guard.

Compared to other police forces, the Gardai are a notional force at best, the general public shouldn't have to rely on luck to determine whether they will be protected and served, but currently that's what we have.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428642#Comment_122428642

i thought so too at first. But maybe not as silly as it seems.

This would mean we'd have a gendarmerie model like a few continental countries.

And the scobes dont do much scobing when the gendarmes are around.

Lest they get the old wood shampoo.

We could have a model which moves up in intensity. Gardai, gendarmerie, military.

Gendarmes typically do border, coastal patrol, anti-trafficking rescues.

All pie in the sky stuff but sure why not, its Friday.

whisky_galore

At no point in our history has the use of military to do police work has been a good idea.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428782#Comment_122428782

i think Italy may have used the military to deal with the out of control ndrangheta. Successfully iirc.

Nux_BlackThumb

Yea, merge them and name them the Auxiliaries.

MarkR

I saw battlestar Galactica.

Commander William Adama : There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

Would be piss funny though.

Soc_Alt

The Irish Defence forces do not defend the state.

The British Royal Air Force chase off the Russian Planes and Fishermen chase off the Russian Ships.

So again I ask why are both not merged that we have a tactical police force that also have full military training.

TheValeyard

No.

Admiral Adama had this one nailed.

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430325#Comment_122430325

But only work our defence forces to for the state is provide assistants to the Gardai, Ambulance service and Fire Service.

So why not just merge the IDF and An Garda Siochana.

I've yet to see an argument not to.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428642#Comment_122428642

And how.

Close this down.

thomil

Okay, here we go then

1.) Gardaí and the Defence Forces train for completely different missions and completely different operational requirements. For starters, whatever talk there is about the DF helping out in natural disasters etc., the heart of their mission is to kill any enemies. Just because there’s no current threat that doesn’t change the training. The basic mission of a soldier is to kill their enemy. The Gardaí are specifically trained, and equipped, not to kill unless absolutely necessary, and to deescalate a situation by non lethal means whenever possible. That’s why Gardaí are unarmed and while even countries with armed police forces usually don’t equip the regular police force with anything bigger than a 9mm pistol. Having someone dressed like a soldier and carrying an MP5, HK 416 or similar weapon rock up to your regular police call-out is going to be an escalation in itself and will only increase the potential for further escalation, whilst combining the training for soldiers and police forces will result in a combined force that will be worse at both jobs.

2.) Combining the forces will not automatically lead to an increased presence in the streets. A large number of roles within the defence forces effectively duplicate the police, given that both have completely separate management/command structures. If the forces were to be combined, a lot of these roles would be made redundant, grossly reducing the pool of manpower available to the new combined force. And that’s not even counting a lot of the specialists that joined up specifically to serve in the Defence Forces. You could easily end up with a new combined force that is not much larger than the current AGS, but with very few extra capabilities.

3.) The Defence Forces are subject to strict controls and restrictions with regards to their use within the country. And given the weapons that even a small military like the Irish one has at its disposal, that’s a good thing. If the DF and the Gardaí were to merge, a lot of these systems would still have to be rolled over into the new combined force to provide at least some vestigial defence capability. However, that new combined force would, by necessity, have far fewer operating restrictions than the defence forces currently have. And if my experience from back in Germany is anything to go by, anything the police have at their disposal WILL eventually be used, and more importantly abused. Having everyone and their mother stalked via the PULSE system is scary enough, I don’t want any such organisation to have 105mm howitzers or even mortars at their disposal.

4.) Legitimacy. A military has a very particular standing within international law, one that brings with it a number of obligations, but also a number of privileges. Law enforcement organisations lack this, so the members of a combined force would enjoy far fewer protections when, for example, deployed on a UN mission or trying to take down an uncooperative target vessel in Irish waters, such as happened with the MV Matthew a while back.

All of that is before the reasons that other posters mentioned, most crucially the fact that a government with a highly militarised police force would have far fewer scruples about using said force against their own people than they would with the military, since the latter has far more checks and balances in place.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430272#Comment_122430272

ah now that one actually is a stupid post, on the surface, and after reflection.

Thats just a terrible idea.

Eudaimonia

The solution is to up the defence forces spending to that of our European counterparts to 4Bn or 3% of our GDP. Put one quarter of that into cyber defence. Put three quarters of that 4 BN into updating our marine and air defence infrastructure.

The utter cheek and gall of our defence forces to claim a substantial chunk of that to pay their salaries is treasonous. Serve. Build an infrastructure to defend our nation so the impartial humans who can’t separate their will for power against the need for adequate defences for the nation are sidelined.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361528/merge-irish-defence-forces-and-an-garda-siochana

I think you want a version of the French Gendarmerie.I do not love their black uniform.Up close,fully armed and ready for action they are intimidating.They use a fantastic baton action.Bring them here.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122431093#Comment_122431093

Interestingly Gendermes in France are part of French armed forces with roles that vary from search and rescue, riot control and service abroad.

gormdubhgorm

People saying it has not been done anywhere else. Was watching the olympics opening ceremony. There were French lads dressed in black - big units. I was told they were "the National Gendarmerie"

From wikipedia -

The National Gendarmerie (French: Gendarmerie nationale  is one of two national law enforcement forces of France, along with the National Police. The Gendarmerie is a branch of the French Armed Forces placed under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of the Interior, with additional duties from the Ministry of Armed Forces. Its responsibilities include policing smaller towns, suburbs and rural areas, crowd and riot control, criminal investigation, including cybercrime. By contrast, the National Police is a civilian law enforcement agency that is in charge of policing cities and larger towns. Because of its military status, the Gendarmerie also fulfills a range of military and defence missions. The Gendarmerie has a strength of around 102,269 people (as of 2018).

There is also similar in other parts of the world apparently. Seems to be a hybrid of police/armed forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie_%28disambiguation%29

Edit - I just see it has been discussed above. It does not sound like a bad idea to me an elite paramilitary force under the control of the Minster of Defence. Stuff like the Dublin Riots would be sorted out farily quick.

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428601#Comment_122428601

"Ireland has managed to have a state with law and order " ??

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430272#Comment_122430272

Because, military training is not conducive to proper policing.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122432430#Comment_122432430

The difference here is that while some European nations do have these paramilitary police forces like Gendarmerie, Carabineri etc, they generally fill a gap between civil policing and military operations. France, Belgium, Italy etc still have conventional militaries whose job it is to kill people and break things. The conventional military requirement does not go away even when paramilitary police forces exist.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361528/merge-irish-defence-forces-and-an-garda-siochana

Unlike you the dog in the street actually understands the purpose of both the Garda and the defence forces. They also probably make a bette job of trolling

Esel

It appears that we are one of only two democracies in the world where the police force is also tasked with national security.

I don't know what the other one is....

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122434905#Comment_122434905

"Defense Force"

What do they do when the Russian millitary planes fly within our aerospace?

What do they do when the Russian ships sail into our or close to our waters?

tjhook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122439957#Comment_122439957

Yeah, chronically underfund the military for decades, then moan that they can't do enough.

I suppose we could try to build on the arrangement with the UK, to have them defend us. Maybe reopen Irish ports to British navy ships. And to defend our airspace, it'd be more efficient to have a permanent British air force presence on the Irish west coast. And it'd be interesting to see the British army marching in the Dublin St Patrick's day parade.

Or we could act like a grown-up nation and accept that being one comes with responsibilities.

Wanderer78

militarisation of the police force, yup, cant see any problems there!

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440125#Comment_122440125

So what's the problem in getting rid of the defences forces and Gardai as they currently are and creating a hybrid police force.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440184#Comment_122440184

ah go on, admit it, you re into the ould bit of authoritarianism, and the ould militarised state…..

definitely some serious issues within both organisations, but is this really the best course of action!

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440203#Comment_122440203

So you actually can't think of a reason.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440215#Comment_122440215

…move to countries that have such approaches, and shur just let us know how yea get on, particularly in relation to your 'freedoms', you might find you may not have as many freedoms as you do here, and best of luck with your freedom to express your opinions, including your opinions on your dislikes over ruling bodies, governments bodies etc!

tjhook

I'd add that in this country, the Garda Síochána is ultimately accountable to the government but the armed forces are ultimately accountable to the president. This one of the protections designed into the structure of the nation, to provide a balance of power and prevent a government from abusing its power.

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440232#Comment_122440232

Your just waffling in your post.

Your just proving my point that you can't see any reason to not merge them.

Just Give me 3 clear reasons why you think its a bad idea.

If you can't then don't post nonsense pretending you are having a debate.

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440243#Comment_122440243

But does our president have the same influence in our defence forces then they may have had in the decades before?

Seems symbolic at best.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440272#Comment_122440272

what age are you?

…you re showing signs of serious emotional immaturity in your own posts!

…i can do insults to!

…again, toddle off to russia there now, and let us know how yea get on, maybe you can be called to the frontlines, and experience its craicness……

tjhook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440307#Comment_122440307

Yes, the chain of command goes up through the ranks to him, not to the Taoiseach. It's a formal structure, not symbolic.

Soc_Alt

it's embarrassing at this stage. Just use them internally to make an elite police force and merge the budgets.

Irelands defense is non exsistent but we require the law to be uphead internally with zero tolerence policing. Government should pull the plug on these 2 departments and create one department.

Ireland’s the ultimate defense freeloader

https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-defense-freeloader-ukraine-work-royal-air-force/

Eoin Drea is senior research officer at the Wilfried Martens Centre for European Studies.

Despite war raging in Ukraine and countries like North Macedonia, Georgia and Moldova desperately seeking to join the EU, there’s one member country that won’t be helping to defend Europe anytime soon.

That country is Ireland.

Despite bearing responsibility for 16 percent of the EU’s territorial waters, and the fact that 75 percent of transatlantic undersea cables pass through or near Irish waters, Ireland is totally defenseless. And I mean completely unable to protect critical infrastructure, or even pretend to secure its own borders.

Think I’m exaggerating?

Well, Ireland’s “navy” of six patrol vessels is currently operating with one operational ship due to chronic staff shortages. Over one month of naval patrol days were cancelled in the 12 months prior to March 2024 due to staffing shortages. Pay and conditions are so bad that entire classes of Naval Service graduates are being bought out of their contracts by private employers seeking their technical skills.

Ireland simply has no undersea capabilities. How could it, when it barely spends 0.2 percent of GDP on security and defense? And it has, in effect, abdicated responsibility for protecting the Europe’s northwestern borders.

Things are so embarrassing that when Russian navy ships conducted drills near Irish waters three weeks before their invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, it was a fleet of Irish commercial fisherman who confronted them. And more recently, an upsurge of drug trafficking activity linked to Mexican organized crime forced current lawmaker (and former senior Irish army officer) Cathal Berry to warn that “(Ireland has) handed the keys of the country over to the cartels.”

Unfortunately, things are even worse up in the skies. Ireland has no combat jets, and it’s the only country in Europe that can’t monitor its own airspace due to the lack of primary radar systems. The absence of combat or heavy airlift planes has left the Irish begging other European air forces for help in emergencies — most recently during the evacuation of Western personnel from Afghanistan.

Instead, the country has outsourced its security to Britain in a technically secret agreement between Dublin and London, which effectively cedes control over Irish air space to the Royal Air Force.

This must be the luck of the Irish — smile and get someone else to protect you for free.

Unfortunately, so entrenched are the country’s policymakers in their formula for defenseless neutrality that no major shift in policy is possible.

Officially, the Irish government is directing attention toward its “Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces” published in early 2022, which — they say — will transform Irish capabilities. Unfortunately, however, Irish defense spending continued its decline through 2023, with modest increases significantly below the rate of inflation. And the only planned upgrade before 2028 is the acquisition of a basic primary radar system — all other weaknesses are blisfully ignored.

Meanwhile, Dublin’s decision to attend this year’s Munich Security Conference and extol the virtues of neutrality demonstrates just how out of touch the country has become. This inevitable car crash of a discussion highlighted how Ireland’s painfully patronizing brand of best-in-class humanitarianism is no longer taken seriously beyond the Irish Sea.

Ironically, it’s Ireland’s membership in the single market and penchant for “tax competition” that’s given Dublin ample fiscal space to invest more in security and defense — if desired. Its booming business tax receipts, driven exclusively by U.S. tech and pharma companies, are expected to deliver budget surpluses of approximately €50 billion by 2027. Alas, security and defense spending don’t even enter into the conversation of how this money is to be spent.

Ultimately, Ireland’s policies underscore the fact that Dublin feels no responsibility to protect its own borders, regardless of the potential impact on its fellow EU members — a view that reflects its broader transactional approach to EU affairs, which is predicated on safeguarding existing relationships with the U.S. (corporate tax) and the U.K. (open border with Northern Ireland).

European solidarity only brings up the rear.

Plus, Ireland’s approach to the next round of EU budget negotiations promises to be more of the same old, same old — more money (Ireland’s a net contributor) in return for maintaining the flow of business tax returns. Somehow, Ireland, which was bailed out in 2010, is still trying (unsuccessfully) to run with the frugal gang when it comes to hard cash.

Pay a little, receive an awful lot more seems the current Irish mantra.

And most depressingly of all, not even a direct Russian attack on the Baltic states, Finland or Poland may convince Ireland to lift a finger — or reach for its checkbook — to help defend Europe. As part of a successful strategy to convince the country to ratify the Lisbon Treaty in 2009, the EU agreed to an additional Protocol, providing Dublin with an escape clause for any European defense responsibilities.

So, while the EU — including even Germany — stumbles forward on security and defense, Ireland remains aloof on its island oasis.

Two things are certain: Ukraine will keep fighting; Ireland will keep freeloading.

Larbre34

This is a stupid thread.

The very suggestion betrays an ignorance at the actual role of either organisation.

Close it.

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Esel

IBTB

Beta Ray Bill

@Soc_Alt

What you're talking about is the systemic failure of state to invest in infrastructure and maintain/manage those assets.

There is shortage (Manpower and Assets) in the defense forces because of money. The State does not want to invest money in the defense forces.

There are a stack of other sectors where there has been basically 0 "meaningful" investment in the last 30 years:
HSE
Prison Service
Garda
Fire Brigades
Ambulance Services
Railways
Roads
etc

The list goes on and on. There are two reasons why:

1: There actually isn't that much money to spare, Ireland is Rich on paper but not in reality
2: Capital investment is nearly always mismanaged and wasted (Children's Hospital - HSE, Hybrid Signaling System - Irish rail, E-Voting Machines - Electoral Commission, RTE, etc)

If you want this fixed, you need more accountability, ramifications and a "less coarse" social net in Irish society.

None of those three will be attained in my lifetime.

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122495727#Comment_122495727

Such denial.

Sure it's only a matter of time at this stage as Army strength falls below 6,000 for first time in living memory.

The IDF will be binned. The President did nothing so these soldiers can apply to An Garda Siochana.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41454847.html

No-one has argued why there shouldn't be a merge. I actually now think the only option is to merge.

When it does happen, most he will support the idea.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498871#Comment_122498871

You get nothing by merging them though, there are around 7,500 people in the defense forces and the budget is €1.23B

The Garda Budget is near double that at €2.31B, and there are around 18,000 people in the AGS

You're saving nothing, you benefits is nothing, you're gonna increase costs as those 7,500 need to be fully retrained.
If you merged them, it is highly likely all the commissioned officers would leave, now you've lost all the experience.

As I said it comes down to money, they need to pay soldiers properly.

In relation to the shortages in the Navy, believe it or not that does not come down to Sailors, it's the inability of the navy to recruit chefs and paramedics. (primarily down to wages. the Army are back filling medics as far as I know)

There are 700 people in the Navy and the ships have a 55 Crew (Max). There's more than enough there to keep at least 4 ships at sea with 4 crews resting.