Cabinet discussing The Open at Portmarnock

awec

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/07/24/open-championships-proposals-to-bring-golf-tournaments-to-dublin-considered-by-cabinet/

Minister for Tourism and Sport Catherine Martin is expected to bring proposals on Wednesday morning to Government on potential bids to bring the two high-profile golf competitions to Dublin.

I am on the fence about this to be honest. Obviously, it would be amazing to see The Open come to Ireland.

But I think I'd prefer to see it go somewhere other than Portmarnock. Correct me if I am wrong, but they never hold opens / get involved in GI, and are very much the old style pretentious club. I'm not sure I'd support taxpayer money being thrown at this because I'm not sure if this would really benefit golf in Ireland, or just benefit Portmarnock members in the long run. I would also hope that Golf Ireland don't throw their resources at this, for the same reason.

Curious to know other's thoughts on this, maybe I'm just being unreasonable.

FixdePitchmark

I just don't get The Open being in Ireland...

It makes no sense...

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361194/cabinet-discussing-the-open-at-portmarnock

I think you're talking nonsense. Your irrational biases are based on the fact they don't offer cheap green fees through an open competition.

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420140#Comment_122420140

It's being hosted in Ireland next year.

ec18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420260#Comment_122420260

Northern Ireland…..not the same

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420257#Comment_122420257

Well yea, I literally said this in my post.

Portmarnock members can play Opens elsewhere and avail of Opens elsewhere and GI rates but there is no reciprocation. Is it not a legitimate complaint to have?

I don't see how it's "irrational".

blue note

Portmarnock is a perfect location for it. You've the airport and hotels, it's accessible by DART, the national road network points to it, I can walk to it from my house. I can't think of a better location for it in the world.

SimpleDimple

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420439#Comment_122420439

you can also sneak into it from the beach

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420140#Comment_122420140

why does it not make sense? Its not the British Open - its The Open Championship and the R&A can decide where to hold it. I believe the only stipulation is that it has to be a links course.

At one point it was only held in Scotland.

But no reason and no blocks for The Open Championship to be held here or even on a mainland European course.

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420265#Comment_122420265

Ireland is the island and Portrush is on the island of Ireland.

ec18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420572#Comment_122420572

yeah but from an economic point of view / hosting point of view it's not the Irish societies / institution that receive any of the economic benefits

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420299#Comment_122420299

There would be a number of economic and tourism benefits for the local and wider economy from hosting but your main argument for Portmarnock not getting it would be because they don't host opens? It's irrational as there are a number of arguments that could be made for not having it but yet you picked that even though it's the R&A that runs The Open and not Golf Ireland.

There is no such thing as Golf Ireland rates per se. It's at the discretion of the club/course whether they offer opens and eligibility criteria, and set their entry or greens fees. You are not prevented from playing Portmarnock, you just don't want to pay the rake rate (which is fair enough).

Also, Portmarnock host elite amateur events and just had The Women's Amateur a few weeks back. Members would lose the course for approx. a week at least, so I think people need to be cognisant of that fact. If they were to host a few opens, I suspect they would be geared (and correctly IMO) toward the better and elite golfers.

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420676#Comment_122420676

Neither would the Scottish or English golf unions then?

Does that mean that all money pumped into the local economy by the tourism has to be collected for the R&A? I don't get your argument.

ec18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420758#Comment_122420758

You know what I mean you're choosing to obfuscate. Northern Ireland while part of the island of Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Any revenue generated from the event is collected by HMRC not the Irish revenue and such as no benefit to the Irish state that the cabinet here is concerned with.

The question being discussed is the Open being hosted in Republic of Ireland saying it's in a colocated but different jurisdiction is not Ireland hosting the open

Apologies for the diversion. Any premier event that's held here is a good thing. Personally I usually prefer events to be outside Dublin if possible to spread resources and benefits around a bit.

BigChap1759

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361194/cabinet-discussing-the-open-at-portmarnock

Sounds like a perfect fit for The Open……

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420793#Comment_122420793

I'm not obfuscating. The question being discussed is Portmarnock hosting the Open.

You don't know what the taxation arrangement will be but I would be surprised if the money pumped into the Irish economy (It's estimated around 350 million euro) from the event would far outweigh any "supposed profits the R&A are taxed on". I suspect the profits before tax are negligible as the revenue is pumped back into the game (which seems to be 10 million from roughly glancing at their annual review).

Portrush is in Ireland and hosting it there has benefited both jurisdictions economically and with R&A grants.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420723#Comment_122420723

I am fully aware that Golf Ireland don't host The Open. Yes, of course there are economic benefits, but those benefits will exist no matter what course hosted the event. The benefits aren't exclusive to it being held in Portmarnock, though to be fair, Portmarnock may be the only show in town.

If Portmarnock did host it I'd obviously very happily go watch it, it would be great, no doubt about that. The Open in Ireland would be huge, no arguments there from me. But part of me would still be a bit frustrated that a club that contributes to little to golf in Ireland would get a big pay day out of it.

Before they host The Open it would be great if they could just start hosting opens. It would be great if they offered to other GI members what they themselves are happy to take from the other members of GI when they visit other clubs.

This is not about getting cheap green fees, nobody is looking for 20 quid green fees, but it's about giving and taking and contributing to golf in Ireland and the wider local community.

Maybe I was unreasonable in my opening post but I don't think my point is entirely irrational.

Shank Williams

do Troon, Carnoustie etc do 25 euro opens?

coillcam

@awec I'm open to correction but Portmarnock has moved on a bit from the past and you can play opens. All big name courses have big name price tags and will look out for themselves #1. I think Royal Troon is around €400 per round iirc and that's kind of the range you're in. Any prestige or high-end course is mad money now in the states.

It's great that Ireland could host some big sporting events. One off or single venue events are about all we can manage so The Open would fit in there nicely. Portmarnock is one of few realistic options tbf.

Forgetting Portmarnock for a moment and the local economic uptick in Dublin. There would be benefit to golf across the country for up to 3 weeks around the event. People will travel as a bucket list trip and make the most of it. The week before and after should see plenty of tourists teeing up across the country.

A big thing against this from the R&A perspective is that you're now outside the UK. Does this mean then they'll have set a precedent and look at European links style venues in future. Again highly unlikely.

I expect the government to offer a sweetheart deal for the R&A to attract the event. Ultimately it'll come down to what the R&A decide. They have a set rota of venues and a long tradition - the hint is in the name Royal & Ancient. Surely it could only be a one-off disruption and then back to the normal rota, not to mention the really unlikely chance of an existing host being dropped. It's tough to see The Open come to Ireland but money talks...

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421076#Comment_122421076

Is your yardstick to measure their contribution to golf in Ireland is to host an open for a few mediocre golfers? They have just hosted an elite ladies amateur event.

Opens were originally to allow non-members an opportunity to play courses not offering green fees. Portmarnock offer green fees, so you are not prevented from playing it. Since the financial crash (largely I can see), clubs have started offering them as a way of generating revenue and they become part of some clubs operating model. Let's not kid ourselves that the non-elite clubs are offering opens (1 or 2 times a week) for golf altruistic reasons, it's purely a revenue generator for them.

These conversation are about cheap green fees at the end of the day. The conversation is done to death as over and over. The green fee is 350, if they offered an open comp with 350 entry would you play?

From my perspective (and is controversial), if they did offer open comps it should be for better and elite players (a la Portmarnock Links Winter Series). Fcuk growing the game of golf etc…. at this point, all that has done is reward mediocrity and allow people to compete without putting any effort into the game. We should be rewarding the better golfers that do have talent and put in the effort, hence getting low enough or qualifying to play elite courses opens should be encouraged. Otherwise if you really want to play and are sh1te, pay the green fee.

Besides if they do host it, there is nothing stopping you from trying to qualify for The Open if you want at least 2 days (and practice days) free rounds.

There are plenty of valid reasons why potentially it shouldn't host one of the biggest golf tournaments in the world. Yes, it's completely irrational to even bring the lack of Open comps into the discussion over those reasons.

big_drive

My own opinion is that it shouldn't be played in Republic of Ireland. I was in Troon last week and really enjoyed it. To me it should be played in either Scotland or England. Also Wales if there was a course good enough to host. Portrush is stretching it a bit I think even though it's Northern Ireland.

Shank Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421208#Comment_122421208

they are trying to ease muirfield (I think) out of the rota as it can’t take big crowds, fusty they may be but The Open is their moneymaker and they will follow the money (to an extent)

TheCitizen

Silly idea. We have an Open Championship, it’s called the Irish Open. Plenty of ways of funding good sporting ideas with the taxpayers money. This government has been in power since forever and this is the stuff it’s coming up with?

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422567#Comment_122422567

What? Its not The "British" Open. Only a uneducated yank would refer to it as that….its just The Open, plain and simple. Actually, it was only held in Scotland for many years until the R&A eventually started hosting it in England every few years.

If the R&A wanted to play it in Australia next year, there's noting stopping them.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422567#Comment_122422567

It's not the British Open, it's The Open. It might be known as the British Open, but it won't be held in Britain next year, Portrush is in Ireland/Northern Ireland. It's no more in Britain that Portmarnock.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423902#Comment_122423902

https://www.theopen.com/latest/why-it-is-the-open-not-the-british-open

'The confusion surrounding the Championship’s correct title is long running and yet in essence the explanation is simple.

Initially, in 1860, there were no other Opens for it to be confused with.

Only as the sport grew in stature and influence around the world did nations introduce national Opens. The U.S. Open was born and, in time, the French, Spanish, Italian and many others followed.

Perhaps the key point is what happened next. In response to the new Opens, defined by nationality, the R&A was clear and unequivocal: The Open was not the British Open.

At no stage in the Championship’s history have the minutes, entry forms or programmes of the R&A ever referred to it as the "British Open".'

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423902#Comment_122423902

Northern Ireland is not part of Britain, Britain is an island, the clue is in the name of the country Northern Ireland is a constituent of…

blue note

I must see if I can buy the name "the British open". I'll start my own championship and make bread from the confusion. It would be some fun the r and a demanding I stop using the name due to the confusion, but also insisting they are not the British open.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423973#Comment_122423973

I'm sure they probably own the name anyway in relation to golf. There's more than one British Open, it exists in a variety of sports.

Beechwoodspark

My objection is simple - we should be funding the IRISH Open - not the British Open or “The Open”.

bustercherry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122424100#Comment_122424100

Christ above 🙄🤣

blue note

I'm still not over the tour de France having a stage here and not getting renamed. The amount of people that think we're part of France as a result is unbelievable. We're still dealing with it daily 20 years later.

blue note

In fairness, people aren't mistaking the competitions name for the Great British Open, which would imply on the island of Great Britain. They're mistaking it for the British Open, which would probably imply the British Isles, which would include ourselves.

So when it happens and people start calling it the British open just relax and remember that while it is the wrong name, it's not wholly inappropriate.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122425352#Comment_122425352

Its not called either of those things, though - its called The Open. You even acknowleged this in a previous post before deciding that it was actually called something different and going on a weird track about it.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122425460#Comment_122425460

Pointing out that your entire argument is based on thinking that everyone uses the same wrong name as you is not pedantic; though.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122425460#Comment_122425460

Widely known?? I've only ever heard The Yanks refer to it as The British Open. I don't know of any Europeans who would refer to it as the "British" Open. I

Break80

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122424100#Comment_122424100

Agree 100%.

How this even got to cabinet level is beyond me.

The cost of the carrot we would have to dangle to sway The R/A to hold their Open championship outside The UK for the first time ever would be eye-watering.

No doubt taxpayer will pay, Portmarnock reap the benefits for years to come.

Deep Thought

would love to see it, but having been to the last six opens, I don’t see how they can get all those people to a peninsula. Where are park and rides? 20k people a day is a lot and our infrastructure ain’t great. They can barely get people from Maynooth in the city on an average day

RoadRunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122427161#Comment_122427161

Park and ride via malahide park I imagine?

RoadRunner

http://www.golfsouth.co.uk/open-championship-at-royal-portrush-brought-in-100million-of-economic-benefits-to-northern-ireland/#:~:text=The%20Open%2C%20which%20returned%20to,hours%20of%20global%20television%20coverage.

I've personally visited Portrush/Portstewart during the Open directly and afterwards returning in the following years with friends playing both Portrush and Portstewart numerous times, enjoying the area, eating out and contributing significantly to the beverage production economy in the area. The open was the perfect showcase for what the area has to offer and I cant wait to return.

Deep Thought

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428024#Comment_122428024

Possibly, doubt that would suit people from the west or south travelling. I have gotten the train the last couple of opens and they also have a bus transfer , again.. not sure how that would work here..

it’s going to be difficult.

At least somewhere like Adare or K- Clhb have acres of land around them . At the Ryder Cup they used Weston Aerodrome as P&R

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122427139#Comment_122427139

Whilst I think it is a nonsense.

I'd imagine the overall benefit to Ireland would be positive.

Major sporting events have a far greater social and cultural impact ..and irish people are event junkies.

Look at any major events we have held ..people still talk about them and it is important to out identity and focus on Ireland as a great place to do things , buisness, great people and community.

You get investment and improvement in.socoety hard to see...you get ambition and confidence too.

It isn't a straightforward spreadsheet.

I don't agree with it from a sporting history perspective..but I see the vision.

soverybored1878

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361194/cabinet-discussing-the-open-at-portmarnock

This is kind of like saying you resent The Masters being held at Augusta because they are so exclusive in their membership and don't allow visitors.

Whilst it would be great, I personally don't think this will ever happen for a number of reasons. Not getting bogged down with the 'british open/the open' debate but I also just don't think they'd be able to handle the infrastructure. It's a peninsula with one small access road.

If it did, it could have a knock-on benefit for courses nearby if tourists fancied a round whilst they are in Ireland? I don't know.

Kevinmarkham

When I got stuck into this thread I never expected it to be about whether it was called the 'The Open' or 'The British Open', or what is or isn't Britain/Great Britain/UK.

It is often, if mistakenly, called 'The British Open' outside the UK. Even Irish journalists call it The British Open. In America they regard their US Open as the most important Open championship - no surprise there - and so refer to the oldest, historical and most important major as The British Open. I hate hearing it called The British Open, but does it really matter.

As for Portmarnock hosting it and whether they offer good rates or open events, or whether they're stuffy/elitist is irrelevant. You could say that of Royal County Down and guess where the Irish Open is being held this year!

Portmarnock hosting The Open Championship would be huge for golf on this island. We are already known as one of the best golf destinations in the world, but hosting The Open would elevate things further and bring increased tourism/spend. And being the first course/country to host The Open outside the UK, after 150 years, would be an enormous honour… although it would probably also reinforce the popular American view that Ireland is a part of the UK.

The biggest challenge to ease this process along - as has been pointed out - is access to the golf club.

This conversation with the R&A, about hosting The Open at Portmarnock, has been going on in the background. It is not a bolt out of the blue. The government announcement is the formal beginning of the process.

For those saying it will (or should) never happen, you may be right, but we're further down the road than you might think: Portmarnock has already hosted two R&A tournaments. These are important steps.

I, for one, would love to see it happen.

billy3sheets

It would make attending much easier and affordable for everyone on this island. Assuming that you didn't need to stay in a Dublin hotel of course 😉

FixdePitchmark

I know this is a bit left of field and an unusual counter point.

But does Ireland really need more tourism ?

We already have very high green fee rates and hotel rates .

Do we really need more Americans taking up tee times ?

If I was to look at all the sports that need a focus or push in Ireland..I'd say it is grass routes soccer and league of Ireland..far better impact / societal return.

The club in question is so wealthy and the R&A and commercial value of event i is so high. Government shouldn't be getting involved or focusing too much resources or energy on this .

It should be a standalone commercial private entity..

Kevinmarkham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122432417#Comment_122432417

I don't disagree with you, Fix, we have more than enough tourists coming and prices are getting to be ridiculous. But tourism (and golf tourists especially) is such an essential part of our economic make-up - Ireland earned €5.3 bn from overseas tourism in 2023. I don't see anyone backing off the tourism train. The government is going to support a venture like this that. After all, the Open at Royal Portrush generated €119 million of economic benefit for Northern Ireland.

The fact that it's a wealthy club is an interesting point - what golf club which has hosted the Irish Open in the past 20 years or so is anything but wealthy?

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122435574#Comment_122435574

You can't host a big event without the high-end courses. They're the only clubs with the requisite facilities and cash reserves to invest. Versus heading off down to the arse end of the country where the changing room has 2 guest lockers.

The tourist point is fair imo. We always need any boost to the exchequer that's available. I'd love to know the breakdown of where golf tourist money is spent and how much comes from US vs UK vs ROW. Would suspect the top 5% of courses (big green fees) account for 80-90% of all revenue. US guests must be at contributing the bulk of this.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122424341#Comment_122424341

Once you realise that posters novacs and beechwoodsparks probably never held a golf club in their hands, let alone play a game, it's easy to ignore them.

Some people are stuck in the past and think politics and nationalism should be the primary considerations for anything to do with sports.

Sad really.

Speak Now

The Amateur championship have been here in 2019 and 2024 so we already know The R&A have no issue hosting outside Britain and N.I if they so wish.

antimatterx

I think it would be amazing.