Golf Ireland - the benefits

magic_murph

Recently joined my local course and was wondering what the main benefit of being part of Golf Ireland - do they offer reduced green fees across the country or is it mainly just handicap maintenance ?

callaway92

1. Pretty much mostly it’s handicap maintenance.
2. Access to play Open Competitions/Scratch Cups etc usually at a cheaper rate than green fees
3. Sometimes reduced green fee prices but generally only at high end courses

slave1

biggest benefit is excellent car insurance, I've been using it for years and (for me) always cheapest out there

coillcam

Benefits as the lads say above plus you can compete in interclub competitions. You'll find reduced green fees at quite a few courses of all price ranges. Note that lots of clubs don't post it online but when you call the proshop they may offer a reduced rate. Your club may also have reciprocal golf with another club - so free casual golf on another course although it's rare enough these days. Ultimately Golf Ireland is the same as FAI (via FIFA) or IRFU (via World Rugby), they are the country's union that administers the sport via the R&A.

If you don't want a handicap or club membership you can pay green fees as an unaffiliated golfer. Think of paying a tenner for 5 aside astro with mates.

The Independent Golfer scheme (through Golf Ireland) will also have some benefits in the subscription when it comes out. Unsure what that will be but you can google the Scotland/England scheme to get an idea. It will also let you keep a handicap without being a club member.

magic_murph

Cheers.

Going to play Portnoo soon green fee is usually 250 but in an open comp is 50 so that's a great saving.

I had a feeling the membership is mostly around reduced greenfees for open comps which I hope to take advantage of.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395614#Comment_122395614

Yeah opens are a great way to play new courses for a reduced rate and the bonus of potentially nabbing a prize is even better.

You also get to practice as much as you want at the club and the unlimited casual golf is makes the membership "cheaper" the more you play.

slave1

Ignore that €250, pure Yank attraction dribble and delusions of grandeur

Shank Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395614#Comment_122395614

if you’re up that way might as well play Cruit Island 2- more welcoming spot- some great holes- prob 25-30 quid or something like that for 18

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395501#Comment_122395501

Any idea when this Independent Golfer Scheme is going to kick off?

Found this article on it. Would very much interest me.

https://irishgolfer.ie/latest-golf-news/gui-ilgu-news/2024/05/20/golf-irelands-independent-golfer-scheme-what-is-it-and-what-does-it-mean/

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410782#Comment_122410782

No idea, the clubs are more than a bit pissed with GI as there's not been much information until recently. No confirmed launch date but if not by end of this season, you'll see it early 2025.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410782#Comment_122410782

Fairly sure it’s October it’s looking to be

Kiith

There's been massive backlash from clubs to Golf Ireland over the IGS. Almost no consultation before they brought it up, and pretty much unanimous rejection of it.

It's definitely going to kill a fair few clubs.

G1032

Thanks all. It's pretty much the perfect solution for the like of me. Was a club member for 25+ years but don't have time now to justify the subscription costs (and haven't had for years). I would definitely try to get out more than the couple of times a year I do at the minute if I had a handicap and could play open days. I understand the concerns of the clubs though.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410979#Comment_122410979

The clubs relying on distance members are the ones in danger, no idea what that number is tbh. Every other club will be fine.

I'm sure it's been considered but given the comms so far, I'd be doubtful if GI has engaged appropriately with the distance clubs.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411096#Comment_122411096

Agreed. For someone like me it’s a massive positive too

spacecoyote

For me, I can see the reasoning. Let people get handicaps, try increase GI membership, etc...

But 100% think there should be no access to Opens. You can input general play rounds and use the app, but you pay at full rack rates.

Otherwise just smells of having you cake...

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412302#Comment_122412302

I think something like this is what most clubs will end up adopting.

Either no access to Opens, or limited access to prizes, or only allowed to play Opens with a significant surcharge added on to the green fees.

G1032

If that's what happens there is little point in the scheme at all. A 3, 4 or 5 year ban on any existing club member migrating to the scheme would be more appropriate. 5 years with no Sunday comp or interclub competitions or Captain's Prize or Presidents Prize or Club Match Play or Club Cup and so on so forth would be a big sacrifice just to switch to a scheme like this.

callaway92

Golf Ireland won’t allow clubs to apply a surcharge for IGI Members for Opens/Scratch Cups etc.

It actually doesn’t make sense for Clubs to charge a surcharge on them anyway. There’s an opportunity for clubs to potentially get more people playing their open comps anyway due to this system.

Maybe clubs need to look at themselves if they are losing people to this?

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395665#Comment_122395665

Just crazy prices, I’m surprised the Americans aren’t waking up to how much higher they are being charged vrs Irish people.
I’ve played Portnoo many times as I’m from Donegal. Decent course but not worth 250.

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122414056#Comment_122414056

GI have no say on pricing entry fees to domestic opens etc.

Clubs set their own rates.

Some offer a Gi rate. Some don't .

They can't be mandated to do so.

They Gi can however to their own championships.

VW 1

Would clubs not benefit from the green fees coming in from GI visitors, which would be empty slots or member slots generating no cash?

I am assuming the vast majority of members of clubs would stay members, casual golfers under the system would be likely to play opens and clubs could advertise these and generate 20-30 green fees they may not have gotten on a quiet Thursday.

My POV is that it's more likely to attract casual golfers given the lack of a barrier to entry rather than seeing droves of members leaving. There will be some bleed of course, but those leaving because of the financial cost savings probably would have been pondering leaving either way.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122414358#Comment_122414358

Of course they’d benefit. There’s potentially a new market opening for them. Some just won’t want to accept that though, and that’s fair enough for them I suppose

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122414358#Comment_122414358

Depends on how it affects their membership. The only way clubs will stay viable is to protect the value of membership.

Green fees are unreliable income, they are heavily seasonal and heavily weather dependent.

The new IG fees will only benefit clubs so long as there is no negative impact on their membership income as a consequence.

newport2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122414079#Comment_122414079

A lot of Americans won't even consider playing courses below a certain price. A reasonably well known course was struggling a few years ago and on advice, substantially put up their green fees (over doubled them) and within a short time were booked out. People assume that the higher the green fees, the better the course (have made the same mistake myself in the past).

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122415833#Comment_122415833

I heard the same about Dooks.

Something along the lines of being a ‘Category 4’ golf course instead of Category 2 or 3… something along those lines when they’re all at conferences trying to sell packages in America.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122415499#Comment_122415499

The significant majority members clubs in the country need as much supplementary income as possible outside of subs. Ie those that don't have high demand/pricey subs/tourists. That usually comes in the form of green fees via opens and societies.

The biggest line for income will always be memberships. If I think of my own club, 1 full adult sub probably equals 20-25x green fees (eg Opens or non gui rate). You won't want to try to find that number of green fees if you can avoid losing a member. So it's plain to see the club's concerns.

Hypothetical numbers, if you drop 1 member (€1k/yr) and charge €50 for an open (€10 to prizes, €40 profit). You'd need 25 open green fees in a year (€1k/€40) to cover the loss in sub. Assuming you have 20 opens, it means you need 1.25 extra golfers per open to offset the loss of a member (25 fees/20 opens).

To me, I see it fairly reasonable to expect that each open can entice the extra 1-2 independent golfers. Let those golfers play casual golf too and it offsets the lost member quickly. 12 months later I'd expect a club to convert a small number of those independent golfers into new/intro members. And so on the cycle continues.

I'm cherry-picking and simplifying but unless a club bleeds a big number of members, there shouldn't be a big concern. The onus is on the clubs to entice independent golfers to play open and casual golf as well as recruit into membership. This will offset the leavers who are waiting 12+ months before they can use independent golf.

It will be important for clubs to not price themselves out of the independent golfer market. Clubs need their green fees. Astute clubs that position themselves appropriately can see net positives for income and membership afterwards.

spacecoyote

If IG members were to get open rates at the same as GI club members though, I genuinely think it would break a lot of clubs.

Why spend about 1500 a year for membership (allowing for Sub, comp fees, bar credit, etc...) if you can go out and play opens for €20-30

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122416136#Comment_122416136

The significant majority members clubs in the country need as much supplementary income as possible outside of subs. Ie those that don't have high demand/pricey subs/tourists. That usually comes in the form of green fees via opens and societies.

But that's the key point, it's supplementary income. Membership money being replaced with green fee money would be really, really bad for clubs.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122416370#Comment_122416370

It won't be as bad as you think. If you really want to play golf you're not going to give up membership. There's unlimited casual golf, practice facilities etc. Those who want the cheapest sub will always move around clubs anyway.

The person who only plays 10 rounds a year or who's circumstances change (work, travel, kids etc). They'll come and go. A small but not insignificant % of memberships are transient by nature for obvious reasons.

If this scheme was as bad as people make it out to be half of the clubs in England/Scotland would be covered in cobwebs. The numbers of golfers in Scotland on the scheme is about 2.5k iirc in 587 clubs. That's 4 golfers per club, are you going to lose 4 members and have 5 different golfers putting in green fees to recoup the loss? I'd wager yes.

If the apocalypse arrives and clubs bleed members for 2026, expect to see the independent golf sub multiply by 3 and green fees to double. Between all of our own clubs and Golf Ireland no one will allow it to kill the clubs.

Membership demographics will show the majority are in the 50+ age group. Independent golf is one of several streams to get more people playing the game. You won't get covid again (hopefully) giving a 1 off boost. If you don't attract more people to play, you won't have members and in turn, you won't have clubs while the game slowly bleeds away. Eventually becoming super elitist with few clubs remaining.

100% I would have been a member in my club years ago if I could have become an independent golfer to test the waters. I was hesitant to even hand over €350 for the intro scheme I joined with.

ShivasIrons

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122415833#Comment_122415833

This is the biggest load of codswallop being peddled around for increasing green fees, groups coming to Ireland or anywhere for that matter rarely know the breakdown of what they are paying, they don't choose on price, they choose on reputation and where they are told to go.

The people peddling to increase the price where the ones making commission on selling green fees, the higher the price, the more commission they make. It's easy to increase the price when the person buying doesn't know what they pay.

newport2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417188#Comment_122417188

I've spoken to many people over from the States over the last 20 years, friends, colleagues and people I've ended up playing with. I used to try and tell them you could play really good courses over here for €50 or so (at least years ago you could), but I gave up. In general they consistently disregarded anything below, say €100 (probably more now). A lot of them booked the courses themselves and did to a large extent use the price of green fees as a guideline.

Last time I played Carne (about 8 years ago I think) it was €55 for gui members and €110 for non-gui members. This was the first time I'd seen reduced rates for GUI members for casual golf, so I asked why this was. The pro said something along the lines of "Otherwise we'd get no Yanks here". Rosapenna was €210 for the 3 courses when I played the earlier in the year, €495 for non-gui.

So while I take your point that some may use it as an excuse to justify increasing fees (I don't know), I certainly do know from experience that a lot of people will assume a course is better if the green fees are higher, ignoring others below a certain price. I've done it myself in the past.

Maybe like you say, that the people on commission, ie selling the green fees, influence this by pushing people towards the more expensive courses and not pushing the cheaper ones. But whatever the reason, it seems to work.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417188#Comment_122417188

He’s correct - they don’t see price. They see Category 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5

benny79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395237#Comment_122395237

Who is it with?

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122418992#Comment_122418992

AIG I think it’s been for the last few years

Kiith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122418992#Comment_122418992

https://www.aig.ie/about-us/our-sponsorships/golf

I've found them to be ok compared to others, but not the cheapest for me this year.

Kiith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417043#Comment_122417043

The difference between a club surviving and going under can be extremely small these days. You take 50 members out of a lot of clubs and have them sign up to the IG scheme, and you will definitely see clubs go under.

Golf Ireland could have discussed this with the clubs months ago, actually asked them what they thought, and try to work with the clubs to bring in a scheme that would benefit golf, and "grow the game" as they love to talk about without actually forcing clubs under. What they did was tell them it was happening, and tough **** if you don't like it.

dan_ep82

I seen the recent update to the app was to just put an ad before you can access the information 🙄

Surely they can give you some information like HDID used to, best hole,worst hole, best score etc etc

ShivasIrons

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417673#Comment_122417673

The only factor in the quieter courses getting busier is the increased number of visitors into Ireland, for example from 2014 to 2019 there was a 61% increase in visitors from the US to Ireland. The marquee courses are at capacity, golfers are looking to play, so they play other courses near the tourist route they are on. Increasing prices has nothing to do with it. If the Old Head dropped their price to €100, would it mean less golfers want to play there? If an old established parkland course in the midlands increased their price from €50 to €500, would they get more business? No, they'd lose all the business they had.

As for Golf Ireland, golf clubs in general are run very poorly in Ireland, Golf Ireland delegates come from the clubs, so if clubs are run poorly so is Golf Ireland. Clubs are poor at customer service, member engagement, financial management, lack oversight and accountability, have little vision or forward thinking. Does Golf Ireland, have much vision? Are they working steadily towards the vision? It looks like when the GUI and ILGU amalgamated they took the worst of both and put them together.

Does Golf Ireland increase the participation of the game and funnel members towards clubs?

Bar inter club competitions, do clubs have much interaction with Golf Ireland? Not really. If a club member doesn't play in an inter club competition do they have any interaction with Golf Ireland? None at all

What's the purpose of the high performance squads and elite development? If a golfer isn't making the grade they are forgotten about quickly.

Golf Ireland, needs the clubs and club members, more than they need them.

Could Golf Ireland be great? Of course they could, golf centres to bring people into the game and funnel them to clubs, inter club events where you don't have to a bandit to win, high performance squads where the person is cared about not what they win, seminars, events and exhibitions for Golf Ireland members, Golf Ireland owning golf courses where your membership gives you playing rights etc etc.

We'll be waiting a while before seeing any of that.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122419257#Comment_122419257

100% on the first sentence. Costs are astronomically higher today compared to three years ago. Most clubs would be pulling in largely the same income and previously breaking even… plus/minus a bit. Memberships and green fees should be increasing to match this too whether we like it or not

I agree that 50 members would sink plenty of clubs. However, you're not going to lose 50 members out of a club unless it has lives on distance membership or there is some sort of shenanigans going on.

GI fumbled the ball here massively on communication no doubt. They already have schemes for growing the game, which many clubs do already participate in. It wouldn't have been too hard to put working groups together amongst clubs/regions that is separate to their own committee rather than just put the hands up and shrug shoulders.

If what GI said is taken as genuine about the R&A enforcing the independent golf program, this should have been the first message to clubs on day dot. A private entity running it could have been a disaster no doubt. GI need to take feedback on the chin. Their main work aside from communications should be to limit damage to distance clubs.

ExPaddy

Currently there is a lot of price GOUGING of international visitors… It leads to fewer international visitors over time (they're not all old & rich)… and in the next recession they'll be wondering where they are… why the hotels and guesthouses are empty.. Well - maybe because they're in sunny Spain for food & accom at 1/2 the price, and good golf at 1/3 the price. Charging 3 times the GUI rate is obscene. In other countries there is a surcharge - maybe 30%! In rip-off Ireland it's 200%!!!

ExPaddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417188#Comment_122417188

the true golfers - ones who play a lot and visit Ireland, Scotland, etc.. by themselves see it. Know some who play a lot in Ireland who join an Irish club as members to just to get GUI… BUT now several price gouging clubs want GUI and Driver License or charge 3 times the GUI rate. That's sickening - I go elsewhere. To play Ireland I may join as overseas and to hell with any course that wants proof of residence - I PAID MY MEMBERSHIP! Stop gouging!!!

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487675#Comment_122487675

I'd echo almost all of this. Ireland becoming an absolute shíthole for Golf

Played Ceann Sibéal Dingle a few weeks ago. It cost €70 per person for a group of about 16. Green Fee for non GUI would've been €170. I'd say if our group wasn't as many as 16 we'd have been asked for €100 per person.

Genuinely it was as bog standard a course as it gets. I'd say a €30/€40 round. Played well though funnily enough. Was kinda disgusted that people pay €170 for it.

slave1

Its heathland/links at best, they throw links into the title but not all 18 are links IMHO, kinda like Seapoint

Shank Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488855#Comment_122488855

absolute greed on display in Kerry- likes of dooks and ceann sibeal taking the piss- had to hop on the rip off bandwagon

Thank god for another more northerly county that I won’t name

coillcam

I think the days of a bargain standard green fee are gone. Most clubs tend to be members owned but take whatever extra income they can get provided member tee times aren't impacted. Outside of opens and the odd golfnow deal, €50/60 seems to be the standard green fee on any decently maintained course. Paying upwards of €100 is not unheard of and that's before you consider GI rates.

@ExPaddy when I played abroad (Spain) last year I couldn't get a green fee under €100 (buggy extra). Nice courses no doubt but not better than what I could get for the same price at home. Plus it was guaranteed to be 5hrs+ in a buggy due to tourists and shambolic rangering. Food/drink/hotel are clearly miles dearer in Ireland that's obvious. Any premium course over there was aligned with the comparable Irish prices…

Ireland plus our neighbours across the water are blessed in terms of golf. We have courses everywhere and can pay an affordable green fee for decent tracks(€50/£50) in so many places. The elite/premium courses will always be in a different bracket and have freedom do do as they please for their green fees.

An element of gouging is present but that's no different than going to temple bar and paying €10 a pint, it's your choice. You can't throw the toys out of the pram just because you can't play the top 20 courses in the country for peanuts. It's the same everywhere.

blackbox

In my opinion, Golf Ireland has become completely bloated with a huge sense of self importance.

The seem to be always recruiting more staff - I suppose more staff justifies higher wages for the management. They take in huge amounts of money from club members each year.

There sole purpose should be to oversee the handicap system and inter club competitions, much of which work is actually done by volunteers.

They make a big deal of giving money to promote women in golf but this is actually largely government grants that they are distributing. The same for environmental improvements, accessibility, etc.

The idea of trying to recruit new golfers is a good one, but the Independent Golfer scheme has been a farce.

spacecoyote

Guess there's worse gouging going on elsewhere to be fair. Guess you shouldn't expect any different from a Trump owned course

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122494437#Comment_122494437

Ireland plus our neighbours across the water are blessed in terms of golf.

I have no data to back this up, but arguably Ireland is the best place in the world to play golf.

Relative to the standard of courses we have available our green fees and our membership rates are very reasonable. It is a very accessible sport here, significantly more so than the likes of the US.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122494491#Comment_122494491

Any sporting body or non-profit will a certain point in their journey will align itself with standard industry practice. Be it other orgs abroad or looking at GAA/IRFU/FAI whatever. They are academic courses in sports development, management and so on. They're just following the playbook but that's not a get out of jail card either.

Like anything in life, it takes people, time and money (crucially) to change things. If you think volunteers are going to come in and do full-time jobs in a large sporting body you'll be happy to have the government pay off their mortgages too. I'd suggest reading their annual report and looking at the financials, then comparing it with another sports body. 100% they rely on volunteers all over the country in clubs as does the GAA/IRFU/FAI and without them, we'd have no sports clubs. The government gives them something like €1.5m a year to distribute. If you've no sporting body in place with appropriate structure/governance you'll get a pittance. Someone has to lobby for and administrate the grants. That's the way the system works. Of your golf cost for the year they get €28 per adult and €7 per junior. Pocket money only and I'm discounting grants/sponsorship tie-ins. Independent golfer is not yet launched, they fumbled the comms and are regrouping. Remains to be seen how it plays out tbf.

ExPaddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122494612#Comment_122494612

That used to be true. I play in both places. Plenty of very good cheap golf in US. Same in Portugal - Spain. I'm there in the off season. They do rollups where can play a typical 80 euro course for 25-30 Euro (No resident BS required - same for everybody - they live off tourism). They have high priced courses like Monte-Rei that are Empty!

What Ireland never gets is - the Golf Club may benefit by having one foreigner out there on a cool October day, paying 250-300 Euro for a nice links course; but he only buys one flight on aer lingus, needs one hotel room, one rental car and one dinner in the clubhouse or wherever. If they had 4 paying 125 Euro - well that might help the economy; and they MIGHT return