Inquest on Clonmel deaths

Field east

I report on the inquest on the death of 4 young people killed in a car crash in Clonmel was made public yesterday. It was an opportunity for the authorities to highlight two issues that are key to increase survival rates and they did not. And these are namely:-

(1) Aquaplaining - that’s like driving on glass that has been smeared with lubricating oil. You have ABSOLUTLY NO CONTROL over a car that aquaplains. One has no idea of what aquaplaining is like until you experience it and - for obvious reasons every , very few young people would have experienced it. And , IMO bald or new tyres have very, very little if any influence re control when a car aquaplains - although that is no excuse not having good tyres on.

(1) Seatbelts. There was no mention as to whether the occupants were wearing seatbelts or not.
I apologise for bringing these points up at this time as the sad occasion probably still raw with the families concerned .But if further lives can be saved by learning from the accident that then may be some succour to them

enricoh

Think they said on the news rear tyres on bmw were under the 1.6mm limit. Think that limit is too low as it is n should be raised to 2.5mm tbh. Used to fit tyres n seen it all the time with young lads with 18inch alloys n them slicks.

NIMAN

I think the news reports more or less hinted that excessive speed probably wasn't a major factor in the deaths.

It appears it was simply down to bald tyres on a rear wheel drive car, and a wet road surface.

But for all occupants to die, it would appear that perhaps sestbelts weren't being worn by everyone, or else you'd have expected some survivors.

McCrack

Seat belts were not a factor. The collision was not survivable for any occupant.

Princess Calla

I'd imagine if seatbelts weren't worn it would have been mentioned.

It sounds like it was a very tragic accident, one that each and every one of us could be in.

Just a few weeks ago I was driving home on M50 with kids in the car. An absolute downpour happened. Visibility was extremely poor, road markings were either invisible or else not replaced due to ongoing roadworks. Speed was reduced to 50km/h.

I said shag this and pulled off the M50 and continued on through regional roads , so I was only dealing with one car infront of me and traffic lights slowing everything down.

20 years ago I probably wouldn't have made that call!!

Just a very sad case and god love their families.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370422#Comment_122370422

It's hard to figure out a car travelling at 50kph and crashing, and all the occupants dying. Unless the circumstances were very unique, it doesn't quite make sense. Most cars have seatbelts and airbags now. I understand the vehicle landed on it's roof which would explain some but you'd think that would require a bit more energy. I can understand the coroner wishing to phrase the report in a sensitive way out of respect for the families.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058359297/inquest-on-clonmel-deaths

Aquaplaning happens with speed and excess water on the road, has experienced before with BMW X5 which has large tyres and M11 in bad rain. A couple of sections end up with water running across the road

If you have bigger tyres this will make it easier to happen, I was told this before and based on driving on the same road with a smaller car with similar conditions seems to be true

But speed is a huge issue with this

But is still amazes me today that people will spends thousands on a car, then put cheap **** tyres on it, you onky have 4 contact points with the road, spend the money on those

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370558#Comment_122370558

The car was deemed to be going between 41 to 70km an hour in a 50 speed zone.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370558#Comment_122370558

For clarity, it was driving well above the 50km/h speed limit was appears to have been at around 75km/h…

Forensic crash investigator Garda John Coughlan told the inquest it was impossible to establish the exact speed at which the car was travelling when it mounted the kerb and struck a small wall at the entrance to Hillview Sports Centre before spinning and landing on its roof.

However, from examining CCTV footage from a camera 170 metres from the crash site, and the speed at which the car passed three poles, he was able to establish it came out of a 90 degree bend at 51km/h before accelerating to a speed of 75km/h on a road which had a 50km/h limit.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/07/11/leaving-cert-students-were-killed-instantly-when-car-skidded-in-heavy-rain-inquest-hears/

CatLick

Without commenting on this case, authorities appear reticent to identify driver behaviour as an accident cause. This particularly applies to late night multi occupant crashes on rural roads. I assume it's out of sensitivity to family members but it also hinders road policing strategy.

Ash.J.Williams

Looks like a sanitised report to keep everyone happy . Car was obviously flooring it.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370667#Comment_122370667

Yeah, it doesn't help if we aren't told what's causing all the crashes.

Could they not publish annual figures, which then wouldn't identify any particular crash?

Perhaps say 46 crashes caused by drink driving, 61 caused by speeding, 9 caused by bald tyres etc?

cml387

Apparently one of the rear tyres was showing wire,and the NCT had expired over a year before.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370849#Comment_122370849

Sure the RSA weren't (and still aren't) even sharing the collision data with other bodies over some nonsensical GDPR reasons

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370849#Comment_122370849

excellent suggestion . Get a relevant expert to pour over all the car crashes where there were serious injury/death and indicate the three main causes - per annum or better every 6 months while crashes are fresh in our minds. The expert could also issue a list of all the crashes that he/she considered.

Rowley Birkin QC

The fact the tyres were bald and the NCT was out for over a year shows the total and absolute dearth of enforcement of anything other than speeding here. It's so very frustrating.

Would the NCT have save them?

Maybe not but if the car had pinged off an ANPR camera or checkpoint you'd hope that that the bald tyres would have been spotted and the risk factor reduced.

I lost someone in a crash similiar to this years ago and the lack of apportionment of blame is totally facile and ultimately counterproductive to preventing future similiar incidents. Not accidents; incidents.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370897#Comment_122370897

An NCT test possibly saved us from an accident a few years. I hadn't spotted that one tyre had worn badly on the inside and wire was showing. Got it sorted that day and glad it was spotted.

JP Liz V1

From RTE

An inquest into the deaths of four young adults in a fatal crash in Clonmel last August has recorded verdicts of accidental death.

The four people died as a result of severe cranio-cerebral trauma from being involved in a road traffic collision on the evening of 25 August at Hillview, Clonmel.

There was a torrential downpour of rain before the incident which happened just after 7.30pm, with a lot of water on the road.

cml387

I'm not entirely sure what kind of BMW it was but it was almost certainly rear wheel drive. The car was accelerating (up to 75km/h) so it's possible the back end fishtailed and control was lost.

Seth Brundle

It apparently was a 4 series so definitely had RWD

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370649#Comment_122370649

Crazy speed to take after such a 90-degree turn.

The guy was driving a BMW coupe with shoddy tyres. Add some water, an inexperienced, dare I say cocky driving and the results were catastrophic.

coolbeans

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370667#Comment_122370667

This "God help us" attitude to road policing is typically irish. Clearly people fucked up and people died consequently but authorities don't grasp the nettle and say it preferring instead to rub their hands together and prevaricate.

freshpopcorn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371014#Comment_122371014

I know people says it's a scam but I think the NCT is the only way to encourage people to keep their cars in some type of shape.

When I was younger and was getting into friends cars I'd sometimes have a quick look at the discs. I know they could have been fakes. I wouldn't like us to go disc less personally.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371256#Comment_122371256

If authorities were too direct with their comments there would be a lot of trouble and probably court cases. They would need 100% proof before assigning responsibility and that is rarely available. That's why these reports generally stick to the known facts.

Goldengirl

I am glad the inquest is over and these families can try to get past it in some way . It will have been a harrowing year for them and online speculation is not helpful .

Not having a pop at you ,op , as your post is directed and sensitive but unfortunately it may very probably attract some ill informed and crass remarks ( has already I see ) which can be hurtful for the families and friends .

No blame was attached to any of the victims and was recorded as accidental death so there really should be no posts questioning this verdict or the integrity of the coroner in regard to the verdict.

Every coroner takes into account the feelings of the families but they still come up with differing and sometimes controversial verdicts everyday .That is their job and they are not just churning out reports to mollify grieving families .

The RSA do take note of inquest findings . They record everything and collate the information and present reports to the Oireachtais and make road safety policy suggestions to all the relevant bodies .Again that is their job .

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www

I am not a car person but am an experienced driver and have driven this road in all conditions in the past so it's that I will talk about .

Conditions of the road are and have been stated as the main factor in this accident .

This road is particularly dangerous coming off a steep incline with a sharp right hand bend and just at that point a river literally runs down the mountain on to the road when there is a sudden downpour .It meets a stone wall further down after the bend which is where the car ended up , a good way down from the bend .

The distance from the bend to the wall and the length of the skid on the road showed the speed the car ended up travelling once in the spin .75 km / h

Not the speed it was travelling before that which was estimated at 51 km / h

This was testified to by 2 eye witnesses who said the car was not speeding .

Anyone who has been in a skid knows that driving through one safely , takes years of advanced driving practice or a course in advanced driving technique or a lotta lotta luck .

A car that is going at 40 km an hour can whizz to a resulting speed of at least twice that if you aquaplane . Braking can make the car spin so people are advised to hear down slowly and to try to steer out of a skid instead of braking or turning sharply .

Easier said then done and especially as this point in the road requires both a brake and a turn to navigate and that's without any water on the road .

However as another poster said a more experienced driver might have anticipated the condition of the road in those weather conditions and reduced speed to an absolute crawl .

They still would have skidded depending where they braked but it might have made the situation more manageable

Where the skid happened just after the corner meant the car ended up propelled towards that stone wall at speed and flipped and that was catastrophic.

I am sure if seatbelts were considered a major factor it would have been suggested because that is the point of an inquest after all.

The back tyres, while not great, were not bald and were below the limit of 1.6mm.

But tyres are not the biggest factor in these conditions as even the best tyres are useless when aquaplaning. Good for grip on wet but in conditions like this where more than 4 mm water is running across the thread even a good tyres would have difficulty .

Aquaplaning is not just wet driving it is like your tyres are turned into sleds .

This was a full car with below average tyres on a road that had turned into a waterfall.

This has been a well known black spot for a long time and was literally an accident waiting to happen

The road needs redesigning at that point to divert water away reduce the sharp incline and bend , and very strict control /measures and warnings put in place if it hasn't happened already .

Just another important point .

That lad was found to have no alcohol or drugs in his system .

Needs to be said as others have inferred otherwise online previously and the family have been through the mill

.

I hope the families can get some peace now .This was a tragic accident on a dangerous road and it could happen to anyone .

It is a nightmare that no parent ever wants to have visited on them .

RIP to those poor young people .

tohaltuwi

when conditions on the road are very bad the speed needs to be commensurate with said conditions. Far far far too often people plummet through lakes. The theory test covers all this stuff and should be heeded. That said rip to the people who lost their lives, and condolences to their families. They are certainly not the only ones not to go dead slow in these conditions, abt15-25 kph. Also there should be big warning signs to advise it’s prone to flooding, everywhere I drove in the Cotswolds recently “slow down, area of flooding”

I just hate the use of “they were speeding” or “they were not speeding” , that only means people have or haven’t exceeded what it says on the road signs. Speed needs to be constantly adjusted to road conditions in addition to not exceeding limits. Bad conditions means very very slow. Unfortunately there seems to be social pressure to keep up the pace at or just below road sign limits, irrespective of conditions. I experience this myself.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371406#Comment_122371406

A car that is going at 40 km an hour can whizz to a resulting speed of at least twice that if you aquaplane.

It is not possible for a car to accelerate when aquaplaning.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/does-a-cars-speed-change-when-it-hydroplanes.7234/

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371406#Comment_122371406

If you claim to be an experienced driver then you are open to questioning.

A car will not gain speed with aquaplaning. Aquaplaning means you losing control of the car because it loses contact with the road. This is normally due to heavy water on the road and speed. If you are not speeding the chance is you won't aquaplane. It doesn't increase speed

Tyres are a huge factor in these type of accidents, better tyres can move the water away quicker and stop aquaplaning. If you have **** tyres then it is more likely to happen because the water is not moved out of the way

Every road is a black spot if you are over the speed limit.

Speed is the biggest killer on our roads and sorry the excuses rolled out when these terrible accidents happen have to stop. If not it will happen again.

It couldn't happen to anyone, if that was the case it would of happened already. It's not like rain is rare in Ireland.

Also you think it is huge praise because the person wasn't drunk or on drugs? they are driving so that shouldn't even be a question.

Might sound harsh but it's about time we got a handle on these road deaths and covering up for them with that type of post does nothing for nobody.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371554#Comment_122371554

That's not what I said

If it goes to a spin it can , which it did .

It has also happened to me ..without speeding .

If you lose traction and braking capability and you are on a steep incline what do you think will happen .

That is why the verdict was accidental death , not speeding.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371665#Comment_122371665

This is what you posted

A car that is going at 40 km an hour can whizz to a resulting speed of at least twice that if you aquaplane . Braking can make the car spin so people are advised to hear down slowly and to try to steer out of a skid instead of braking or turning sharply .

Also in terms of turning into the skid, that's for ice, not aquaplaning. You claimed to be an experienced driver 🙄

What you should do

1. Don't hit the brakes hard.
2. Gently ease off the accelerator.
3. Hold the steering wheel straight.
4. Switch off cruise control mode if you have it on.
5. When the car begins to gain control you can begin to brake to bring your speed down.

tabby aspreme

I don't think I've ever read so much I'll informed rubbish about aquaplaning, good tyres help prevent aquaplaning, thread patterns on tyres are designed to remove water from underneath the tyre, the deeper the thread the more water the tyre can remove.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371738#Comment_122371738

Bingo, why I never cheap out on tyres

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371724#Comment_122371724

The point is, when the cars goes into a skid, its speed could increase.

And as for the terminology, you should complain to the RAC so:

Once you’ve realised that your car has started to aquaplane it’s important to keep your cool. If you try to do something drastic – hitting the brakes hard or twisting the wheel suddenly – You could cause your car to skid or slide into a collision.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/winter-driving/understanding-aquaplaning/

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371750#Comment_122371750

That's not what the person posted. Also they claimed tyres are not a factor when they are.

If a car is going at the speed limit of 50kmph do you really think it is going to aquaplane and go into a spin? hop into your car now and drive at 50kmph and see what you think

brookers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371665#Comment_122371665

I grew up in the mountains, terrible driving conditions, floods, snow, desperate roads, sharp bends, desperate inclines, my father crawled everywhere to avoid any accidents. Just a huge shame the mother didn't take the girls to the bus.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371665#Comment_122371665

The excuses being rolled out, poor girls, pity the mum didn't take them. Bad tyres, not taking it handy on a wet road…….

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371837#Comment_122371837

It is possible, and maybe the tyres are a factor in that.

The speed is a factor but the depth of the water would be a factor too (same RAC link as above)

a vehicle moving at about 30mph in an inch or two of water will be able to keep enough traction to avoid aquaplaning, while one moving at 50mph in the same conditions is much less likely to stay in control. 

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371847#Comment_122371847

The road wasn't wet .It was flooded and fast moving .

Its great to see people so eager to come out and say "that would never have happened if "when they or no-one else can say that .

Thats the nature of accidents .

How many times have we heard "he was a careful driver" at the funeral of another car accident victim?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371665#Comment_122371665

It's exactly what you said, it's a direct quote from your post, and spinning can't increase the speed either.

Your explanation of what happened isn't what happened, the crash investigator's report is on the first page, the car accelerated to 75km/h, mounted the kerb, struck a wall, and then span onto it's roof.

tabby aspreme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371960#Comment_122371960

No matter how careful a driver is, if you have to make an emergency avoidance move or emergency stop with poor tyres it's not going to have the same outcome as with good tyres

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371858#Comment_122371858

Just to be clear as I was misquoted by the person you are replying to odyssey , this is what I said ..(and none of this post is aimed at you )

"But tyres are not the biggest factor in these conditions as even the best tyres are useless when aquaplaning. Good for grip on wet but in conditions like this where more than 4 mm water is running across the thread even a good tyres would have difficulty ."

I never said they weren't a factor .

Also misquoted as regards speed by that and another .

Again what I said ...

"a more experienced driver might have anticipated the condition of the road in those weather conditions and reduced speed to an absolute crawl ."

This is part of the tragedy that he wasn't experienced enough to deal with this .

I see that .

Goldengirl

You are not talking about going through a flood which is the circumstances here.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372137#Comment_122372137

Car accelerated after it hit the water . Because it was skidding

Listen this is a witch hunt .

You are now misquoting me and misinterpreting the evidence .

Goldengirl

The good tyres would certainly help prevent in most cases but not all .

Its all steering and trying to regain some control and slow down by gearing down

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372159#Comment_122372159

The Continental Op

No one seems to have mentioned the obvious thing that a lot of people do when they hit a patch of water and start to aquaplane - they slam on the brakes and make matters worse.

Goldengirl

Exactly .

And unless you know not to do that the car goes into a skid .

Sorry thought I said that in my first post .

odyssey06

Did anyone come across what the depth of the water was estimated at?

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372309#Comment_122372309

You did :-) but I'd add that hitting the brakes is a natural reaction when you hit water even before you start to aquaplane.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372309#Comment_122372309

I kinda got the impression from elsewhere that you mostly use public transport, cycle or walk………..

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372347#Comment_122372347

Yes

I reckon he slowed then at the corner breaked again when he started gliding , the car knifed to the right hit the kerb .

You are meant to steer gently out .

I can't imagine doing that on that road tbh . I have had a few bad skids on straight ish flat roads

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372327#Comment_122372327

"Coroner Joseph Kelly said that the BMW went down a steep hill. The road he said was treacherous because the “torrential rain” was like a river ."

Edit typo

Goldengirl

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