Getting out of electric

MrMusician18

I was in the office carpark this week and noticed two former EV drivers stepping out of a Tiguan and Q5, having traded in an ID4 and EQB respectively. I couldn't help but ask them a few questions about their new vehicles and why they've decided to abandon electric, since both had home charging and lived within a good electric range to the office (both sub 50kms). Turns out both were very disappointed with electric motoring, finding that the cars had been oversold to them, they particularly complained about charging infrastructure on the road. The EQB driver was actually quite bitter about the experience, as I suspect the depreciation was tough to stomach too but didn't want to go there.

I went for a spin in the Tiguan and while it is a lovely car and was full of admiration for the new owners benefit, I myself don't miss the constant growl of the turbodiesel and the slowness off the line so I won't be going back- i'm probably going to land on an ID7 Pro S if it comes here next year. While buying a new car is never a logical purchase, I did find it interesting that for some it has been such a errible experience that they've gone back to cars with higher fuel and servicing costs in order to save 10 mins on the 12 journeys they take outside of electric range per year. They also questioned me for staying electric, wondering how I couldn't hate it.

It got me wondering though if the real issue here was missed expectations. Were the crop of cars in the 50-80kwh completely oversold, and have thus damaged confidence in the vehicle type going forward? Or was the covid/war era such a unique time that it pushed people that weren't ready for electric into these cars?

Interested in others thoughts

CMOTDibbler

What was the specific dislike for on the road charging? Seems a petty enough reason on the face of it for taking a massive hit in the wallet.

Buddy Bubs

Are they sales reps or would they just be using the cars for their own purposes?

I'm struggling to get last 2 guys in company cars to go EV here, they won't be getting another ICE though that's for sure.

Of the 6 or 7 that have them, none of us are going back to ICE. One guy is driving EV to Portugal and 3 of us, myself included, have added a second EV to our household.

The only downside I can see at the minute is trading them in, but we are all on our first EVs and probably just keeping them if numbers are ridiculous in the usual 3 to 4 year time frame.

The cars are

ID4 x 2

ID5 X 2

Enyaq

Cupra Born

Audi Etron 55

Tesla model Y

Tesla model 3

All of us travel between sites in dublin, cork, Limerick and Northern Ireland.

Work grand for us.

Redfox25

double post

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368427#Comment_122368427

One is entirely office based so the requalr work that does is 60km round trip. The other did more site work and they are responsible for sites in Galway and Limerick, but the vast majority of their site work (90%) is in the greater Dublin area.

The massive dislike for charging being that the public sites are either slow or busy and that it takes a long time to charge either way. Now thats not been my experience with the public network, only encountering a wait twice in my year of ownership but I wasn't going to question someone who was as i said quite bitter about the experience.

slave1

There was a large spike in EVs pricing after COVID, the correction of which was severely impacted by the disruptive price drops on the Tesla model 3 and Y.

This is the (basic) background to the high depreciation suffered in the last 18months or so

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368478#Comment_122368478

Yeah, this is pretty much across the board. There's a Jan 23 Polestar 2 on the bargains thread for €34k and I'm fairly sure that would have been close to €60k back then. The very same spec car is for sale brand new from Polestar for €46.5k right now. The new model is €45.5k. Whoever sold or traded that car went away limping heavily.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368478#Comment_122368478

I suppose, perhaps rather counterintuitively did accelerating and high prices cause some consumers to set expectations too high and did high EV prices make purchasers consider EVs a premium vehicle, rather than an ordinary car with a relatively novel drivetrain.

That makes me wonder if a better way is more use of bridging technology like PHEV or Rex rather than going straight to full BEV in the mass market.

the_amazing_raisin

I suspect a lot of people don't know about the available charging networks and might think Ecars is the only one

Certainly some of Ecars sites can be justifiably disappointing

There's a serious lack of signage and awareness around charging points, particularly on long routes. Think of how often you see a sign for a town with a fuel station listed as local services, but not EV chargers

That plus the kick in the balls on depreciation would certainly explain some of the bitterness

CMOTDibbler

I'm guessing the EQB stayed in the office and the ID4 did the site visits. Was it an 82kWh ID4 I wonder?

To me, "oversold" means under researched. The ID4 (with the 82kWh battery) would have been perfectly adequate for the job imo. The only problem is the charge speed on DC charging. And then you'd wonder was he charging at too high a SoC (range anxiety) and getting even slower speeds.

Same goes for the EQB I think. Max of 100kW? And a small enough battery for a big enough beast.

I think the research part is probably where people fall down when buying EVs. You do have to spend a bit more time on it than with an ICE. To be fair, sales people are pretty piss poor about the detail with EVs too. But it's down to the buyer to make an informed choice.

I actually think the EQB is a bit of a dog. Very average in every respect except the interior which is quite nice. Screens seem small and fiddly though and it's just a 4 seater which might not suit everyone.

As for the bitterness about depreciation, well that wouldn't have happened if they didn't throw the toys out of the pram.

BrianD3

ID4 and EQB to Tiguan and Q5, what do all of these have in common? A "good German badge". That attracts certain types of buyers for whom image and appearing successful are important. Now take a situation where family, friends and acquaintances are slagging the owner off about battery fires or milk floats etc.- someone concerned with their image is going to take that badly. Of course they'll never admit that insecurity and fear of ridicule is the reason for going back to ICE.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368709#Comment_122368709

This did occur to me too. A lot of sh1te talk around EVs and if you've just bought on the basis of brand and no other research, you won't be able to refute the nonsense. So instead of having your nice new brandmobile admired, you're having it slagged. "Something, something, charging network" is a get out of EV card that doesn't reflect on you or your choices.

Oh and throw in "oversold" for good measure.

Roger the cabin boy

Poor buyer decision mixed with technofobia.

My neighbour buys a diesel car every 3 years. He does about 3k a year just tootling to the shops.

People listen to others rather than thinking for themselves

teediddlyeye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368738#Comment_122368738

To be controversial, lads like him are the reason the choice of having a diesel needs to be taken away.

The typical Irish new car buyer is an idiot with no thought put into what they actually need.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368632#Comment_122368632

Actually the other way around. The guy that has site work occasionally had the EQB and the desk jockey in the ID4 77kwh. I was surprised by the ID4 owner as he's coming to the end of his career and the ID is a nice simple quiet car to drive. The tiguan is lovely too but it doesn't have the level of quiet refinement you only get with an electric powertrain.

I wonder if the poster above is onto something regarding the influence of others. The complaints about public charging don't stack up for me at least. While of course the public network could always be improved I have found it to be OK, if somewhat expensive. Maybe it's because I don't use the greater Dublin area rapids all that often but my experience has been alright to date.

I wonder if they went into electric initially because in 22 and early 23 there was a strong sense in the media that this was the direction of travel for the market. Then the negativity started end 23. Those are strong influences on human behaviour especially if one might be at the butt of the fires and milk float jokes too. Giving out about the public network is an easy out and saves face.

These are of course two individuals with their own motivation so of course you can't draw any generalised conclusions. I guess I thought it interesting as they are the first two people I actually know to have gone back to diesel.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369074#Comment_122369074

I think they are correct, or at least I would guess it's a factor. I get the same thing occasionally and I have the facts to shut down the fud or whatever it is that's thrown at me. And I've had it all, exploding batteries, dead batteries, no chargers, fires, the lot. But if you don't have the answers and a thin skin, maybe it's too much for some.

fafy

i have heard this kind of story mainly about range, so many times.

what i concluded is that like most things, many people are afraid of change, and many are incapable of change.

The majority of people, do not go on 500 km journeys on a frequent basis, sure, some do, but the majority do not, so for the majority, home charging is more than sufficient, most of the time.

Many People hone in on rare exceptions, the long journey all the time, and the worst complainers are those who never go anywhere, it is more of a perceived but totally unfounded bias.

CMOTDibbler

Whatever the reasons, can we just take a moment to appreciate the sacrifice these two gents have made so that two more EV bargains can hit the marketplace.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369188#Comment_122369188

More choice for us who are looking to buy an ev.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369188#Comment_122369188

Indeed. I don't know the spec of the eqb but the id4 was a 22 pro life, with something like 25k km

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369188#Comment_122369188

I reckon you've kind of nailed it, demand was so much higher than supply the last few years that a lot of owners probably thought they'd make back what they spent on an EV

It probably didn't help that the garages were keeping that lie going. I remember some ID.4 owners getting calls offering to buy back 1 year old cars for what the owner paid because they had a buyer looking

Well reality certainly kicked in recently, so those guys are probably quite bitter about the hit they took versus what they'd expected

They probably took such a low trade in they were practically cutting their owns throats 😉

(Love the username btw, only got it recently and been laughing since 😂)

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369053#Comment_122369053

Jesus, glad yer nowhere hopefully near those who steer our country!

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369274#Comment_122369274

Thanks. Love how you shoehorned my user name in there. Made me chuckle.

@MrMusician18 should ask them how good a trade in they got. 😂

teediddlyeye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369277#Comment_122369277

Why?

I'd honestly love to see how many people that bought one post the 08 tax change actually needed them. We all know very few.

And it's only gotten smaller since petrol efficiency has almost caught up, along with better EVs on the market.

Almost no one "needs" a diesel now. Sooner they're gone the better.

Air quality is more important than the feelings of luddites.

fits

I have to say the FUD stuff is getting in on people. I wanted a leaf when they first came out in 2012 so enthusiastic about the technology from the start but even I feel it at times.
rented an EV for holiday this year and I’m a bit annoyed about the extra hassle even though it’s nothing really. Hope the tide changes soon.

yermanthere

Its not a perfect world for ev either. True story from today.

Car at 60% charge. Summer time decision on day off to go and visit relatives, 270km away. So either 3-4 hours charging at home, or go out to local 50kw for 30 minutes, or stop en route for 30 minutes. Like it's not ideal with kids. Where's the spontanaeity?

And before anyone starts with the " sure you'd have to stop for 30 minutes on a journey like that". No you don't , it's 2.5 hours, perfectly doable in one blast. The older petrol car was like the car from top gear, following me around..

dodzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368474#Comment_122368474

You say both had home charging. That being the case I’d assume that the guy doing 60km per day was doing that trip 5 days per week. Add on 100km for evening and weekends. He would never have to use public charging, unless he was on a long trip. So reverting makes no sense, particularly if he was on a good night rate.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369538#Comment_122369538

With high powered chargers and preconditioning you should get enough in in around the same time to fill up with fuel and pay. But I know they aren’t as plentiful as they could be.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369603#Comment_122369603

Car might not support high speed charging. OP specifically mentioned 50kWh chargers.

maidhc

Maybe it’s as simple as they didn’t like them. A 2017 Astra only lasted 9 months in our house from new as we couldn’t get on with it.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369565#Comment_122369565

Not even every day. He WfH two or three days a week. Now, I don't know what kind of night rate he had but I presume he had at least the electric Ireland plan.

To my mind it made no sense for him to not change up to the new ID4 if he wanted to change but he went for the tiguan.

I know he's just one example and the salesman will sell you the car you want but it's hard to understand why someone like that would rationally make the switch back.

One swallow doesn't make a summer but if ideal candidates for EVs are not staying EV let alone making the switch in the first instance then it doesn't bode well. The manufacturers will have to do more to deal with the fud.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369646#Comment_122369646

From my experience and a sample size of about 12 people with EVs, there's nobody moving back to ICE once they've taken the plunge.

Obviously your sample is different to mine but I'd imagine overall, the vast majority are staying EV.

cc

Buddy of mine couldn't believe I drove over 3 and half hours on the motorway with a bit of a slow down near my destination in a M3 RWD, he's not anti-electric per se but just repeats th usual FUD you hear on Newstalk or the pub..

witnessmenow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369646#Comment_122369646

I think the comment about what electricity plan he's on is a factor we often overlook. People on here are probably maximising the savings of the EV by changing to rates that suit us best etc, but there are probably loads of people who don't even change energy provider when their intro rate runs out, never mind finding the best one for their EV.

An EV is probably still marginally cheaper if your on a crappy 24hour energy plan but nothing like the €1-2k savings a year some of us are getting.

And then there is a bit of research required for what public charger best suits the journey. Not a big deal if you use ABRP, but if you don't know that ABRP exists, how do you find that out? Somewhere like here has been useful to find these things out too, we've used the apple green near the airport on someones recommendation from boards and it works out great, but without reading that we'd probably would have been chancing the ESB charger in circle K/Mcdonalds

I really like our EV, we'll never go back to two ICE cars, might even switch to a second EV, but I know for sure it wont suit some people. If I handed my Dad the keys to any EV in the morning, even install a charger for him and basically said "figure this out", I'm not sure he'd be downloading ABRP or swapping to EV rates. In this hypothetical it wouldn't surprise me if he went back to ICE.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369565#Comment_122369565

So many of these charging stories makes no sense.

I think the problem is with all the FUD its still a problem for depreciation…and people just get tired of hearing it over and over.

cnocbui

The OP's acquaintances mirror the situation in the US. A recent McKinsey survey indicated 46% of EV owners may switch back to Petrol ICE.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/46-of-ev-owners-want-to-swap-back-to-gasoline/ar-BB1pdFK1

dodzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370182#Comment_122370182

I’d wager that many here would not have entertained changing to EV if they were paying less than 70c per ltr of petrol.

dodzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369538#Comment_122369538

the vast majority of current EVs could do the first leg of that trip with plenty to spare. Plug in the granny charger at destination for a few hours and you’re sorted.

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370182#Comment_122370182

The US is a very different kettle of fish though. EV sales over there are on an upward trajectory with June breaking the record for most EV's sold in a month. So while the momentum has slowed a wee bit sales are still increasing unlike here.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368474#Comment_122368474

But with that driving pattern you’d assume public charging was not required.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370222#Comment_122370222

Can't say I've many 300k trips on the spur of the moment with a car full off kids who were happy to do that non stop. Not sure my ICE petrol would do that on half a tank either.

yermanthere

See this is the FUD. And unfortunately it comes from within as well as ev-haters. I mentioned 50 KW charger because that is the only DC within 15 minutes of my house. If there was a higher power 10 minutes away it would be moot, as battery would still be cold. So quick top-up before journey still not easy.

There are 2 fuel stations with 5 minutes of my home. Total of what, 18 pumps? And fill up would take max 5 minutes. How much will you get from a 300kw DC in 5 minutes after a 5 minute drive?

And also I said 60% starting out. And 270km. Please stop mis-quoting to serve a point. Find me an ICE that won't do 270km on 60% full? Using a granny charger adds 2% an hour as well. It is a last chance option, not a useable one.

I own an EV. I will probably keep it, or buy another if I haven't been too burned by market. But guys to say that people who are financially able to take the hit and move back to ICE are wrong is blinkered. Until there are DC chargers in similar abundance as petrol pumps, or even half that number. Then EV has a lot of challenges.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058359216/getting-out-of-electric

A recent poll I saw showed that 98% of people will stick to EVs, so yeah they are in the 2% who will make the headlines

Considering almost every town and village in the country now have much better charging infrastructure than even one year ago it is interesting that they recently changed back to ICE cars. Sounds like they'll be back in a few years time when all the petrol/diesel stations close because of the 2035 ICE ban.

gym_imposter

We have a Tesla model Y RWD since March 2023, no regrets whatsoever but probably go for a BYD next time as I think they have a nicer interior

yermanthere

But on a more positive note, the recent carbon reduction report is great news. And EV has played it's part.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370517#Comment_122370517

I take your point. But am curious as to why you would need to top up so close to home? You get the best charging speeds when your battery is below 30%, so without knowing what car you have or its battery capacity, I can only use charger rates to estimate how long you would need to stop to get the rest of the way. A 150kW charger would give you 25kWh in about 10 minutes. That's almost half of a 60kWh battery and a third of 75kWh. And your battery would be well warm enough to get that speed (assuming the car is capable of it).

Edit: I see you say it would take half an hour to charge up on a 50kW charger, so 25kWh is accurate for a top up on the road.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122369053#Comment_122369053

And here I was thinking the government actively made us buy diesels not so long ago. But I must remember that wrong, surely we are all just idiots.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370595#Comment_122370595

Was that not 16 years ago and before dieselgate? Lots of things changed in that time. Not least the realisation that diesel is not as clean as it was made out to be.

McCrack

Electric cars are bland and boring pcp muck.

One car I have is a straight 6 and we did a lot of work on it lately including treating her to a new exhaust and camshaft kit and the sound even when idle is just beautiful. Get her up to 6 /7,000 and she's screaming lovely.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370623#Comment_122370623

It was 16 years ago when it started not when it ended. Did it in fact end yet? I'm still paying a pittance in road tax compared to the perfectly good petrol car I sold for half nothing 'cos it was about €1200 to tax.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370635#Comment_122370635

You're not wrong. But changing the road tax on existing vehicles would require re-testing emissions on every diesel car in the country resulting in a myriad of changes with even the same cars having different road tax rates. Never mind the uproar it would cause. And new cars having properly tested emissions are still benefitting from the emissions based road tax regime.

So it's been left sit for the upcoming ban will deal with it. Less and less diesel models hitting the showrooms even now. Somebody asked on the motors thread about the new BMW 5 series touring model being launched here in diesel and it was confirmed that it wouldn't come here or the UK.