Company didn't pay for sick leave

Will Graham

I ended up leaving work during a shift because I got a headache one day. I informed a supervisor that I'd have to go and why. Anyway the thing is that I was after having a disagreement with another supervisor about an hour prior to this, which I didn't think a whole lot of to be honest.

I found out when I arrived back to after two days out, that management ended up thinking that I left work because I was annoyed with the other supervisor. I explained that it had nothing to do with him, and I was told "it's just the way it looks". I got a sick cert from the doctor for 3 days, which included the day I left work. I was told that I'm going to be sent to the CMO in a few weeks. After this I got a phone call to say that I'd get paid for the two days I was out, plus for part of the shift that I hadn't worked. But I didn't get paid for any of this. There's two days listed for sick pay on that pay slip but zero pay along side it.
They're obliged to pay it, so I'm wondering are they just trying to make me panic, or lure me back in to talk to me further. I'm going to call to payroll tomorrow (before I go to management) to see if there's any explanation for it. It's a public sector company so I'm quite surprised.

Any advice would be appreciated

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058358656/company-didnt-pay-for-sick-leave

Send an email to payroll, no need to involve management. If it is indeed the PS, then they don't actually care. It is certified, it should be paid, simples. Most will keep a record on your HR file but you won't actually see anything in your payslip.

Also make sure that they just didn't list it with zero pay because it is included in your full pay, as in the PS you will get full pay for awhile.

Will Graham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122350226#Comment_122350226

I usually call into the pay roll lady, as opposed to emailing, but I do have the email if you think that would be better.

I'm fearing that I'll be told something like "that won't be paid until after you see the CMO"!

Nigzcurran

3 days off work for a headache! My God the public sector is great 😃

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122350255#Comment_122350255

That's not how it works, once you have a GP note saying you were unfit for work for X days, they can't delay payment. They may ask you to go to a company doc if it's persistent but not for 3 days off. I presume by CMO you mean a corporate health doctor?

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122350296#Comment_122350296

Same for everywhere, if your not fit to work, you aren't fit to work. There are different levels of headaches. Public Sector myself but never had a headache I couldn't work through or take a paracetamol for but some people could have crushing migraines or similar, so, since we don't know and it's not relevant to the discussion, maybe best leave the off topic remarks there.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058358656/company-didnt-pay-for-sick-leave

Someone wouldn't be referred to the CMO if they have a small number of days certified sick. Do you have a poor record when it comes to sick leave?

I was referred to the CMO, but in fairness I was in hospital for 3 weeks and nearly died (I didn't have any sick leave prior to that for 5 years). I found the CMO really helpful, but in fairness HR in my department were also really helpful, they organized a phased return to work.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122350296#Comment_122350296

Have you ever experienced a migraine? They can be quite severe, last days, and be extremely dehabilitating.

Don't be so judgemental.

Ezeoul

I'm CS, and afaik, referral to the CMO only happens when someone has been absent for 4 weeks. I must actually look up the circular.

This is not the first thread I've read were I've wondered if the employer is using the threat of the CMO / Occupational Health to frighten employees.

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122351270#Comment_122351270

They never mentioned migraine. Don't be so presumptuous

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122351839#Comment_122351839

Are you just here to make smart remarks? Or do you have anything constructive to offer the OP?

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122352087#Comment_122352087

The op didn't mention a migraine so why bring it into the discussion?

OP, did you see a doctor the day you left work. Can a doctor back date a sick cert if you didn't?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122352130#Comment_122352130

I mentioned it because migraine is a relatively common form of headache that can last for days - in case you, or the other pass comment-able poster, were unaware.

And the OP already said his GP cert covered him for the day he left work - in case you missed it.

Gemancy

Your company should have a policy that details the process for referral to Occupational Health Doctor. Check and see if your absence history correlates with procedure and policy. It would be highly unlikely that they just decide to send you following 3 days absence, esp certified absence. If they do, I would be looking to see if they refer everyone who has a short absence.

Will Graham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122352374#Comment_122352374

Now the other thing is that, by right, upon being appointed, all employees are supposed to re-visit the CMO. When I first met the CMO I was told that I would have to come back in a year. It never happened, and that's the same with other colleagues I spoke to. I think the company just couldn't be bothered with the expense of it. So the only thing I can think of is that they try and use that as the reason for sending me to the CMO.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122350255#Comment_122350255

Ffs "calling in" is stupid, there's no paper trail y

DoctorEdgeWild

Different situation over here in the UK, no sick pay in my place unless you are off for 7 days. Is this an EU-wide thing or Ireland only thing? (not looking to hijack your thread OP, hope you are feeling better!)

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122354493#Comment_122354493

As of 1 January 2023 all employees in Ireland now have a statutory entitlement to some paid sick leave. It's still quite limited, but it is being increased on a phased basis.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/leave-and-holidays/sick-leave-and-sick-pay/#58f197

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122352811#Comment_122352811

This 100%, send an email, have it in writing.

Hello HR person,

@Will Graham here, my last peay cheque has listed sick pay but nothing written beside it. Can you clarify will it be paid in the next round or was it included in the gross pay?

Thank you and regards

@Will Graham

Will Graham

Was into payroll and was told that they didn't get any cert. They said they didn't hear anything from the guy who I gave the cert to. So I went up to the guy in schedule who I gave the cert to, and he acted surprised to hear it wasn't paid. He had a look through a bunch of certs but couldn't find it. Got a call from him later saying he's going to have a look for it, but that all should be fine even if he doesn't find it.

You see I made the mistake first day of giving them the actual cert instead of getting it photocopied!

Will Graham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122351279#Comment_122351279

So I got a letter today stating that "as a result of a recent illness, [the CMO] has requested that you attend for a face to face medical appointment" in Dublin at the end of the month. "If you are unable to attend please contact [name]" in the HR office.

According to these circulars, "repeated short-term absence cases should not be referred routinely to the CMO's Office". So I guess I'll have to tell them that I won't be attending.

https://assets.gov.ie/18296/fd3b383f1aea4e49896c40df332751bb.pdf

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122364484#Comment_122364484

A surefire way to ensure your rapid promotion! Good luck in your future, dizzying ascent through the Public Service grades.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122364484#Comment_122364484

Wrong move. Unless you want to be fired.

You don't get to decide if your referral was correct or not they do.

CramCycle

Provided your time off was for a headache that your GP signed off on, go to occupational health, explain you are not sure what they want you there for, you had a bad headache, it is gone now, not much more they can do. The other option is to ask for more details as the only time you had off was for a headache for less than 3 days that you provided a sick note and it is not a recurrent issue.

Are you sure you aren't leaving anything out because HR are rarely that stupid to expose themselves over a headache with a note from the GP, that to the best reading of your post is not a recurrent issue.

Will Graham

So I've managed to get to the bottom of it and they're withholding pay until I've seen the CMO. My rep said I should have been notified of this in writing. But I don't think they are entitled to do that at all? That's why the cert disappeared. I'm sure a solicitor's letter would quickly make them change their minds.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122401774#Comment_122401774

I'm sure a solicitor's letter would quickly make them change their minds.

Do you really think that would be a good career move 🙄

thebiglad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403385#Comment_122403385

Do you have any idea what such a letter would cost you?

Just attend as suggested by earlier posters and move on.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403413#Comment_122403413

Not sure why you're quoting me

touts

Two questions come to mind here.

1. Why the referral to the CMO after apparently just 2.5 days out sick with a doctor's cert?

2. Why the staunch opposition to seeing the CMO if the illness issue is genuine?

I suspect we are not being given essential context and background information. Companies have to pay for CMO visits as well as paying the employee for the time and expense attending the CMO plus cover for the employee to be absent at the CMO visit. So companies don't tend to do this for one off cases with good employees. If OP has nothing to hide the CMO would be seen as a free second opinion on a medical condition.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403520#Comment_122403520

What exactly can a CMO do or assess about a headache that was experienced in the distant past. At most the CMO can just give the go ahead that the employee is fit for work but it's already too late for that as the employee is back.

Looks like management are annoyed with the employee and this is just a passive aggressive attempt to inconvenience the employe.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403520#Comment_122403520

Do public sector companies have to pay to refer staff to the CMO?

Will Graham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403385#Comment_122403385

Damn man, where's your pride?

It's a public sector company. I only ever intended to be there 5 years max.

Will Graham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403413#Comment_122403413

Yes, I do have an idea of the cost, but that's beside the point.

Also, it's the withholding of pay that's the issue… not seeing the CMO.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405763#Comment_122405763

Well if seeing the CMO is not an issue (which will enable the sick pay), what is the problem?

thebiglad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405763#Comment_122405763

So,is cost of consultation and letter less than your lost wages, also presuming you are not recovering those legal costs anyhow!

I guess this is a matter of principle, principles cost and put new BMWs on Solicitor's driveways

Best of luck whatever you decide.

daheff

do you have a union? might be time to make use of the union dues if you are a member.

if not, document everything. including the visit to the person who has lost your cert & the email with the payroll person.

double check with the policies also (take copies and date stamp them as they tend to change after the fact to cover past events).

Backstreet Moyes

I cannot believe that any company would be doing this based on the information provided.

Their must be more to this story than what has been said.

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403385#Comment_122403385

Why not?

No consequences in the public sector.

CramCycle

First of all, why is everyone saying CMO, is it not Occupational Health? CMO to me is chief medical officer, does it stand for something else?

Also there has to be something missing here such as previous sick days or a relation of headaches to the role (or an accusation that the role itself caused or was additive to the headache). No company would send you to Occ Health for 2.5 days for a headache that is not persistent, hasn't returned and hasn't affected performance since.

They would be on a hiding to nothing for doing it as it could be looked at as the start of constructive dismissal if it wasn't necessary and was unnecessarily inconvenient.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122401774#Comment_122401774

CALM DOWN. Do not send a solicitors letter over 2 days sick.

Will Graham

So they had me attend a disciplinary meeting a few weeks back, and now they want another member of management to hold another such meeting for a second opinion on the matter, and therefore have requested a follow up meeting. The woman who is supposed to conduct the meeting has no qualifications for the main company skill set, and only got the job because of who her father was. Seems like harassment to me. I’d rather slit my wrists than go.