Champions Cup 24/25

awec

Pool 1

• Toulouse
• Bordeaux
• Sharks
• Exeter
• Leicester
• Ulster

Pool 2

• Leinster
• Clermont
• La Rochelle
• Bristol
• Benetton
• Bath

Pool 3

• Northampton
• Munster
• Bulls
• Stade
• Saracens
• Castres

Pool 4

• Glasgow
• Racing
• Sale
• Stormers
• Toulon
• Harlequins

awec

Munster have the handiest draw by far here.

Ulster are screwed.

Leinster v La Rochelle, good to see a bit of variety here.

Pool 4 is obviously the weakest. Glasgow really getting the benefits of that league win.

OldRio

No jeopardy makes the pool stages meh.

Paul Smeenus

That's a tough ask for us (Ulster). Four difficult games.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329686#Comment_122329686

Home advantage in the knockouts is certainly not nothing, but it is a bit hard to get too worked up over. It doesn't help that we've topped our pool the last number of years anyway and it has still ended in pain and suffering.

Anyway, would like to go to an away match in Clermont so that's something at least. Will probably get them at home now just to screw that up.

FtD v2

Yeah, it's like they go 1-4 in ascending order of difficulty. Ulster's draw is extremely tough - Beyond Toulouse & Bordeaux, you've the Sharks who have half the Springbok side and finished the season really strongly, and then Exeter & Leicester who are always tough to put away too. Ulster could very conceivably finish bottom of that pool.

Leinster's draw is very tough, but I'm more confident about it. No easy games really, but I'd back us to beat any of those teams.

In Group 3, Northampton were excellent this year, but I think they'll regress next year up front with the loss of Lawes and Ludlam. With the Bulls - it entirely depends on whether you get them home or away. Sarries will likely be improved next year to some extent, and will have Fergus Burke in the saddle at 10.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329725#Comment_122329725

Descending 😉

Glasgow gotta be eyeing the chance to top group 4.

awec

Toulouse and Bordeaux both beat us in France, hard to see us getting wins there. Even getting them in Belfast it's a tough ask.

A big part of this group is going to be determined by the order of fixtures and who the Sharks get at home. If the French teams have to travel there in later fixtures, and they already have qualification sorted, I could see weak teams going and the Sharks picking up surprise points.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329725#Comment_122329725

Ulster won't be playing Sharks. They only play the English and French teams. Exeter and Leicester aren't that great. The finished 7th and 8th last season. I could definitely see Ulster winning their two home games.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329766#Comment_122329766

Yea we don't play Sharks but what points they pick up against other teams will impact us.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329783#Comment_122329783

I still think ye'd beat either of those English sides or UBB at home. A win and you're into the last 16. Two wins and you're in with a chance of a home tie.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329793#Comment_122329793

What an indictment of the way this competition is run now.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329923#Comment_122329923

Huh, interesting. My initial response is still "lies, damned lies and statistics"

I don't think it captures how much the teams care about Europe are are likely to compete.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330456#Comment_122330456

It's a nonsense take by that twitter lad to be honest.

Exclamation Marc

It's also not really a "Group of Death" anymore when 4 of the 6 teams qualify. It really only means something if you're guaranteed a high profile casualty.

just pointing out that Munster won’t play the bulls as the two teams are in the same league. Newspapers have missed that.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330456#Comment_122330456

It's a silly take. It ignores what the actual reality of the situation is. By his metric, getting LAR is preferable to getting SF which is nonsense.

The fact that teams don't all play each other makes it a bit silly. SF can look at Pool 3 and consider it an absolute ball ache of a group with potential trips to Northampton and Pretoria whilst hosting Munster and Saracens. But Munster can look at that and immediately be thinking top spot is within our control here given they don't have to play the Bulls.

And Toulouse in Pool 1 (which is a stinker on paper) can look at it and think it's not that bad for them as they're going to face Ulster, Sharks, Exeter and Leicester none of whom made it beyond the quarter final in any tournament this year either European or domestic (and Exeter shouldn't have made it even to the QF of Europe, in reality). They also have Bordeaux who are going to beat most other teams and take points away from competitors. But Ulster are looking at it thinking they're cursed and it's a horror pool.

pickarooney

Why should Exeter not have made it to the QF but tye same is not true for Bordeaux, out of interest ?

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122333366#Comment_122333366

I'm being harsh on Exeter, perhaps. They beat Bath by a single score after Russell went off injured for Bath in the opening stages. They're not at a European QF standard, in fairness. Wasn't a massive surprise when they were obliterated in the next round.

mr_edge_to_you

Does anyone know the date when the fixtures will be announced? Have a young lad who is keen to experience a provincial overseas game and need to get planning (and saving!).

Cookiemunster

It was 13th July last year, so hopefully in the next few days.

icdg

I suspect they won’t yet be in a position to announce exact dates and times, only weekends, if only because there’s still no TV deals in place for next season.

Now there isn’t quite the urgency there might have been on this because the competition doesn’t kick off until December these days, so a few months left (in the olden days, when it kicked off in October, they’d have wanted to have concluded deals, or be close to it, by now). Oddly quiet on that front at the moment though.

Podge_irl

https://www.epcrugby.com/champions-cup/content/investec-champions-cup-pool-fixtures-announced-2024-25

Out now

Clegg

Away again to La Rochelle? Alright.

pickarooney

Crappy Sunday afternoon slot though.

phog

The fixtures for the 3 Irish provinces

Podge_irl

1730 on a Sunday is such a bizarre time.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371917#Comment_122371917

Doesn't encourage travelling support - just checked Ryanair, their last flight from Bristol to Dublin is 19:10 on Sunday evenings. So it probably means other airports or taking Monday off

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371917#Comment_122371917

Yeah, really frustrating time. I try to go to one away group game a year (went to LAR last season) but not going to this.

Podge_irl

I'll probably still go and take the Monday off but I can't recall such a late kick off on a Sunday before. Finishing up at 1930 on a Sunday is not good for anyone surely.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372338#Comment_122372338

Yeah, makes **** of the next training week for the players too.

Just really crap scheduling all around.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372338#Comment_122372338

Leinster played Toulouse way back in 2007 at 21:00 on a Sunday night and there has been a few more late Sunday games generally involving French teams at home but even then, it's still an awful time.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122372364#Comment_122372364

Ah indeed. Should have provisoed "apart from the mad french" who love a 9pm Sunday game for no logical reason whatsoever.

I was at that game. Miserable in every regard.

icdg

There have been 5:30pm Sunday kick offs virtually every year since 2014. Not saying they’re the best of ideas mind (particularly if your attention is turning to NFL Redzone at that point of a Sunday evening) but they’re not new and I’m pretty sure Leinster have even played a home game in that slot (possibly v Wasps a good many years ago - Edit: Sunday 19th October 2014, indeed against Wasps, 25-20)

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122373172#Comment_122373172

Fair enough. I've genuinely not noticed, I always thought the Sunday games were at 1230 (terrible for other reasons) and 1430. Just don't remember ones that late.

It's still a godawful time but I guess tv rules all.

icdg

In what would be a bizarre turn of events, World Rugby-owned RugbyPass is reporting that Irish broadcaster Premier Sports is now the frontrunner to secure the rights to the Champions Cup and European Challenge Cup, with TNT apparently having backed out.

https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/premier-sports-swoop-in-for-champions-cup-rights/

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122402131#Comment_122402131

If this is true and the figure is also true then I hope this TV deal serves as a serious reality check for the URC unions that put all their eggs in the European basket to the detriment of their own competition.

icdg

There is a second version of the story doing the rounds that the rights will be shared between Premier and TNT in a repeat of the 2014-18 situation.

But talking of putting eggs in one basket, PRL (with the RFU following them) cut their ties completely with Sky, basically because it suited their interest in driving governance changes in ERC that they were seeking. The net effect saw Sky almost completely exit rugby union in 2018 (bar Sanzaar rights which, a small number of internationals aside, they effectively only take host broadcaster coverage of). English rugby left itself at the mercy of BT as their primary partner and now they are reaping the reward of that as BT have exited the pitch and, as this saga proves, it is a mistake to assume that TNT are just BT with a different logo - their new American owners have some different ideas about running the business.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403062#Comment_122403062

All true.

But the URC unions put all their eggs in the Euro basket, and the European cups value is entirely driven by English and French interest. Rather than try to maximise the value of the competition they control, they have always preferred to ride on the coat tails of English and French clubs.

The risk now being that they have exposed themselves to the diminished English and French interest in the competition and as an extension, the significantly diminished value of the TV rights for it.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404513#Comment_122404513

What do you want the URC unions to do differently? The URC tv deal is considerably bigger than the Premiership one, and not far off the Super Rugby one (when Aus/NZ/Pasifika franchises don't have extra revenue from a cup competition). The number of games played during international windows has been reduced, e.g. only two games during the 6N - on the break weekends.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404597#Comment_122404597

I would start by making some really basic changes to how the competition is treated by competing unions, by stopping things like:

1. Scheduling test fixtures during league periods
2. Scheduling overseas tours during league periods
3. Allowing players to go play 7s / other junkets during league periods

The URC has a ton of potential, but the only way it'll reach its potential is if it's taken seriously, rather than being treated like something to fill the weeks between European games.

I have to give them some credit, as it has significantly improved the past 3 or 4 years, prior to this the competition was a complete joke. The changes you mention, like stopping during the 6N, have helped for sure. But they can still go further.

In an ideal world, Europe would play second fiddle to the league, rather than the other way round. Or at the very least be seen equally. Getting the URC to this status has to be the goal of all URC unions.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404627#Comment_122404627

IInternational Games will be played on league weekends in november as they make money the clubs/provinces/regions will never no matter what changes or improvements are made to their own competitions.

TThe Overseas development tours should happen though so if not during league then when?

We Should allow players go off play 7s and try make olympics. The more big stars in olympics the better for the sport and better for everyone.

The league has improved but in too many people's eyes in ireland anyway even with all the improvements will always see it as something far less than Europe and something to dismiss or treat as a lesser competition. That will take a long time to change and none of your proposed changes would change many peoples views on the league

Our l3ague in its first format started 6 years after European competition. Ulster had won a title and Munster been to a final before the league even started. I don't think the priorities of many fans will change to league first. It's for many people like in gaa with Europe the championship while urc is league and very difficult to alter people's pwrceptions

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404627#Comment_122404627

Okay.

I think the Keenan going off to play 7s thing is a bit of a reach. Other competitions that players have withdrawn from this season to focus on 7s include July Test matches and the 6N. The URC would truly have to be very prestigious to get to a stage where a player can't skip some games when that isn't the case with the 6N. Leinster could have had Osborne filling in at fullback for Keenan in the match they lost versus the Bulls if they had thought to use him.

We don't know yet what players will be taken on the EI tour. The IRFU have said that it will be more developmental in nature than in 2022, which probably means players who aren't featuring in the URC anyway. The tour could be a way to get these players the gametime they need. My own view is that it would be better to leave Scott Wilson in Ulster, and take Fiachna Barrett, Rory McGuire and Ronan Foxe instead. Playing URC is good for Wilson and they could call him up for the AIs to have a look at him.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404656#Comment_122404656

There is a 0% chance Keenan would have been allowed to go to the olympics if he were to miss a European game. This is the issue.

There is a 0% chance that a test game would be organised during a period where it meant players would miss a European game. This is the issue.

Of course my changes will change people's views on the league. The league is seen as a lesser competition because our clubs treat it like a very lesser competition. Change in mindset has to start internally.

And the harsh reality is absolutely nobody give a shite about rugby at the olympics. It is pure nonsense that rugby is even played at the olympics.

The GAA is a bad example to make as to the difference, the GAA control both the league and the championship, their revenue stream is safe within their own control. Counties competing in the championship are not riding on the coat tails of overseas clubs to keep their competition viable.

Cookiemunster

Antoine Dupont missed the 6N due wanting to be at the Olympic 7s. He also missed Top 14 games while he was with the 7s.

He didn't miss any European games.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404656#Comment_122404656

The league has improved but in too many people's eyes in ireland anyway even with all the improvements will always see it as something far less than Europe and something to dismiss or treat as a lesser competition

Those people include the IRFU and the provinces, which I think is the highlighted problem.

FtD v2

The league has improved massively and is an excellent league that is absolutely worth striving to win, but it is less than Europe, that’s just the reality.

All of the best URC teams are in Europe, but you also have the best of France and England. The European Cup isn’t what is used to be, but it’s still the best club competition in world rugby.

Former Former Former

Leinster sold 82,000 tickets for a European semi final and could have sold a lot more.

A couple of weeks later, less than 20,000 turned up for a URC quarter final against our nearest provincial neighbours.

We’re still a long way off from the URC being anywhere close to Europe.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122418148#Comment_122418148

Nearest provincial neighbours because the distance from Dublin to Belfast is less than Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Limerick?

Bit of a strange way of looking at it when it's a provincial set up here, and there are borders with all the other three Provinces.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122418148#Comment_122418148

We’re still a long way off from the URC being anywhere close to Europe.

I don't think awec is arguing otherwise. I think the concern is that if the TV rights for Europe slide downwards than we may not be able to rely on it anymore and the French in particular may simply give up on it and then what do we do.