land advice,

sam ford

Good morning, i recently inherited 20acres in common tenancy with a brother from an uncle, the land in question is land locked with acess via a neighours land unregestered right of way, any way i got a solicitors letter from my brother asking for me to buy his share out, or for him to buy my share out or go to court, a situation i feel i am not able to deal with through annoyance and shock, i asked a solicitor he says sell it to him or else this goes to court which i dont want, also if this goes to court the judgement could be to sell at public auction, but the right of way does not exist, so will make very little, with auctioneers fees, legal fees etc, mounting up, what should do, thanks in advance

148multi

The three issues are separate but linked,

First are you interested in farming it yourself or buying your brothers share, and what would you ideally like to do with the property, secondly from my understanding people who leave property as tenancy in common do so to prevent it's sale.

The question of the right of way is totally separate, but will impact price, this can be good or bad depending on what you want. Being land locked it's worth less with or without registered right of way.

Getting the right of way sorted is more of a long-term issue and hard to justify doing it through the courts for 20 acres IMHO.

You need a plan of what you would like to do, then see if it's worth doing .

Have you talked to the neighbour to see if he has an interest in the property now or at anytime in the future

Would your neighbour consider swapping 20 acres now or in the future

You need to talk to a good conveyancing solicitor outside of your area for advice, but with a plan you have for the land. It easier to travel a road if you know where your going, solicitors and judges will pickup on indesion, you need to figure out what is best for you.

. What was the land valued at, for stamp duty and land type and potential.

blackbox

It sounds like your brother is the one driving this.

If he is keen to make it happen he should make you an offer well above the open market rate.

I'm guessing the land is not of much use to you, unless it is your farm that has it landlocked.

Squatman

make him an offer, and if your not embarrassed by it, lower the offer

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058357486/land-advice

Why would it end up in court if neither of you buys the other out?

893bet

what type of land is it? How has it been accessed for the last 20 years? Was your uncle farming and accessing it? Who owns the land around it? How is the relationship there? How is the relationship with your brother? Are either of you currently farming? If so do any of you border the land?

Donald Trump

Hard to tell from the description but as regards "going to court", I would suspect that either party can force a sale - albeit not to themself. i.e. if either insist on it being sold then it would be put up for sale/auction. As an alternative, both parties could agree that one would sell to the other. But that would be based on agreement. Because the other party could still buy it via the auction. (Such arrangements might scare off buyers though if there is bitterness involved and the other person is trying to buy back their own land)

Given that you got this news via a solicitors letter, it would not appear to be a great start.

To me, if you both were ambivalent between buying it and selling it, one way might be for one of you to pick a figure at which you are either happy to buy it or sell it and be bound to that figure. Although given the above regarding communication, that might not work out. What I mean is that, say your brother comes up with a figure of 100k and says he will be happy to buy you out at that, or accept that to be bought out at. This method would be unfair though where one party would be in a weaker position in terms of not being able to come up with the money.

TinyMuffin

capital gains tax will probably come into it.

sam ford

Nether are farming at all.

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122312645#Comment_122312645

So does that mean place would be sold or leased out or do you have interest in farming it? What happened your uncles herd number? If you aren't interested in farming it I'd say sell your share and be done with it.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122312645#Comment_122312645

no one can advise as you have given 1/4 of the story and not answered most of the questions probing for information.

148multi

There's more than one way to get an answer.

Screenshot_20240628-123752_Chrome.jpg

Why don't you ask you brother to make you an offer, if it's high sell, if it's low add another thousand and make it your offer.

Or is it just a competition between siblings

StoutPost

Based only on what was written, which I feel doesn't give enough detail to give the full story, I would take the following initial steps.

Decide what you want to do with the land, minus the brother. Do you want to keep it or dispose of it?

You possibly need three on the ball professionals - not small town duds - a tax consultant, an auctioneer, and a sharp solicitor familiar with land laws not just sleepy title changes.

The tax consultant needs to advise you on your liabilities in disposing of or keeping the land.

The auctioneer ought to be able to give a reasonably accurate picture on what the parcel will realise on the market - yes it will be lower than land that has independent access as realistically it'll only interest landowners it already bounds.

The solicitor is where it get's interesting. I have some experience in rights of way but I am not a solicitor. I know that three farmers pass over my lands to access other lands. There are no registered rights of way for any of them. But, if I were to lock them out they could bring me to court and I would lose.

In other words they have established an agricultural right of way, but it's just not registered.

This is something you must find out about your land. If your brother is being a bollocks, you could offer him a low price he may be happy with then you may possibly be able to establish a right of way to the land yourself, immediately increasing it's value. Perhaps you may need to start farming, perhaps your uncle was farming it - this level of detail is where I bow out.

I would not act until you find out for sure if that option is available to you, and what rights your brother may have if you go that route.

Leaving single pieces of land between two or more people should be against the law, it only brings out poison.

Water John

What the brother has done is very specific TMK. Whoever makes an offer to buy, could find themselves having to sell at that price + €1.

148multi

If Sam has an interest in keeping some or all of the land he will have to engage with the brother's solicitor. As a judge may take a dime view if he doesn't, and order the sale of the entire plot.

Sam appears to have 4 options in my opinion.

1- sell all the land and devide the money

2- sell his half to his brother

3- buy his brother's half

4- agree with consent and legal fees to partition the two halves physically and legally.

TinyMuffin

Sorry for jumping on this thread but I’ve a question about a piece of land I own.
It’s landlocked and accessed by a lane way off a main road. Proper lane way with 2 banks on either side and 50 year old trees growing on them. It’s about 100 meters long. The farmer who owns the land on either side says he owns this lane and I can’t cut the trees improve the lane or even cut the ditch at the end of this lane way to make it safer to get out onto the main road. It is highlighted on his map as him owning it but the main road is also highlighted on his map. Can I do anything to improve this lane or make it easier to get out onto the road. He’s not a very approachable fella.

minerleague

As far as I know you can do anything to access your land unimpeded for agricultural works. With machinery getting bigger and taller you would be allowed cut back branches etc. Was a case in papers one time where judge ruled that a gate could be widened from 8 or 9 ft for modern machinery needed for to carry on normal agricultural work. What does your own maps show?

148multi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338428#Comment_122338428

Can you mantain the lane way or is the owner responsible.

IIs there a burden on his folio

Water John

A traffic mirror across from the entrance might be a good help. Obviously you don't want to go legal, but he has to allow trim back at the entrance for health and safety reasons. If there's an accident, he could be held partly responsible. That possibility might alter his views.

Base price

@TinyMuffin I know of a similar case to yours except the ROW doesn't lead onto a road. In this case a farmer friend owned land, about 12acres with two normal access points via gates off a side road but he also owned about 18 acres that is linked directly to the 12 acres but via a ROW. The ROW is about 200yds long, banked on both sides it's 12' to 15' wide, stoned but overgrown with hedges/trees etc growing from the banks - our farmer friend was in bad health for a number of years and couldn't maintain it. Another farmer owns the ROW and land either side. The other farmer has gates either side of the ROW so that he can move his livestock from one side of his land to the other. My farmer friend died a couple of years ago and his executor (a younger brother and non farmer) got a excavator with a saw & mulcher to trim back the overgrown hedges/overhanging tree branches around the land and ROW in preparation for sale. The farmer that owns the ROW stopped the excavator man from doing any work and told the executor that it was originally only a pass for a ass and cart and he couldn't widen it. The executor remembers when he was a youngster drawing cocks of hay/small square bales on a cock lifter behind a MF35 along the ROW. The executor got our deceased friends solicitor to write to the owner of the ROW. I don't know what the content of the letter was but the excavator was back in a few weeks later and trimmed up the ROW.

Omallep2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339908#Comment_122339908

Did the owner of the ROW buy it I wonder? He was devaluing it anyway

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122309039#Comment_122309039

Not A good idea if you make a low offer to him he can technically make a higher offer and buy you out. If you make an exceptional offer he can accept.

His brother may have a farmer ajoining who is willing to buy the land. OP brother has send a letter request a buy out or sell. I write back requesting him to put in his bid for buy out. I would not be bidding..

Just on ROW's just because its unregistered is not material. It really depends on whether its a definited ( accross a passage) or undefiited ( accross) open land.

If it accross a passage it fairly easy to register. It depends on whether its a ROW on foot, an agricultural, restricted or unrestricted.

I must do my masters on them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122314848#Comment_122314848

Not quite sure about professional advice. It all depends the ROW, where the land is, quality of it and is there three dairy farmers ajoining it.

If it bang average land with a ROW accross open land it may only worth 4-5k an acre. Good land with 3 DF ajoining could be 10k+

A tax consultant do FA unless you can access a favoured nephew. A half decent accountant or a bit of cop on sorts the tax side. If op has inherited nothing from an aunt or uncle he has a 30k allowance. After that you pay 33% less expenses.

On solicitors they are similar to accountants they are only as good as you.

There is no maybe a ROW can be established to virtually any land. Yes it may cost but it can be established. However where a ROW exists and is in use it can be registered. After that it depends on the ROW that exists. The danger is were what ROW is or is not established.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338428#Comment_122338428

Tell him f@@k off. Better still get a hedge cutter cut the sides and trim overhead. Get a digger to clear back to the butt of the ditches and then send him the bill. Its a defined ROW.

Send him a registered letter( keep a copy) requesting him to maintain the ROW Inform him if he dose not reply within a fixed period acceeding to this (2-3 weeks) you will have to carry put maintenance on the ROW

Register your ROW for your own sake ( not entirely necessary)

I love to be dealing with the f@@ker. I would thrive on it.

As a matter of interest how wide is it to the butt of the ditches cleaned. AFAIK he is responsible for the maintaince of the ROW. That is where is missunderstanding is he thinks it limits you ability to maintain it. It actually means he must maintain it

TinyMuffin

thanks for the replies folks.
it’s about 14ft wide at the bottom of the banks. But there are trees planted inside the banks which he claims he planted, which he didn’t. It’s was a road up to 100 years ago. He called the guards on us 2 years ago for parking a trailer on the lane and blocking it as he told the guards, even tho there was plenty of room for them to drive in past it and turn. Broke up a new 15ft gate that a lorry driver opened the wrong way out across the lane while delivering lime as it was blocking the lane. A lane he has never used.
Very odd individual.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341823#Comment_122341823

Next time the guards arrive tell them it's a civil matter. That you have an unrestricted ROW and he is impeding your access.

Him claiming he planted the trees actually plays into your hand as his claim is giving the impression that he is impeding your ROW.

As I said register you ROW if not already done and send him the letters as above.

leoch

Bass how do u go about getting rid of a row which people never use is it possible to de register it ???

lmk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341823#Comment_122341823

why are people such c**ts

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122342672#Comment_122342672

I'm not presuming Bass's comments but have a look at the following link -

https://legalguide.ie/termination-of-easements/

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122342672#Comment_122342672

Look at @Base price link above. In reality it is very hard to terminate a ROW without agreement of the ROW owner.

As well its impossible to terminate a ROW where there is no other way of accessing the land.

leoch

I own the land the row in on and they don't need it as they have access from there own side and they never use it so I'd like to close it up

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122344127#Comment_122344127

If they walk it once a year they maintain it. I think it 20 years non use before extinguishment. However even at that they would probably need to agree

ROW extinguishment Is similar to adverse possession the person applying has to prove there case and if its challenged its a high court case

Donald Trump

Establishment of easements by prescription was due to be eliminated after the 2009 LCLRA Act. If you had wanted to keep a ROW it would have be registered. I think the orginal deadline for that was 2011 or 2012. Extensions were put in place due to confusion and people not registering plus some edge cases. In the end up, an amendment was rushed through in Nov or Dec 2021 (I think that was the year) under the LCLRA Act 2021. That reverted back to the pre-2009 position in relation to easements by prescription. If I remember correctly, the 2021 Act reintroduced the doctrine of the Lost Modern Grant as well.

In summary, a ROW does not have to be registered for it to be valid. But if it is registered then it is more secure as there is less potential for disputes as to whether it exists. They can also be lost through abandonment (as alluded to above) and are extinguished if the dominant and servient tenements are joined. The last bit just means that if your neighbour has a ROW across your field to his field, but then you buy his field, the ROW is gone (it would be pointless at that stage anyway)

Water John

Well you can't have a ROW on your own land.

148multi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122345549#Comment_122345549

IIt would be very unusual, be in theory it could be in place.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122352613#Comment_122352613

No. See my post above. You need both a dominant and a servient tenement which you won't have if you own both. I only mentioned it for completeness as a way (in theory) that an easement can be extinguished