New build: 3 bed house in bad area vs 2 bed apt in good area?

DonnieCorko

Hi,

I am looking for people's advice on purchasing a home.

We are looking at new builds and there apartments going up for sale in a few days near Phoenix Park (castleknock side).

They are 2 bed 2 baths, 80 sq metre, A2 with air to air heat pump and 1 parking space for 485K.

With HTB and the home equity scheme, our mortgage would be around 1350 per month which is generally very good, but of course we actually only own 80% of the apt, with the option to buy out the other 20% over time (with some stipulations around valulation).


Issues
1) Its an apartment so maintenance charge is likely to be around 2500-3k
2) Only one car parking space. Gf needs the car for work but I can commute by the train that is very close by and would 1 hour door to door to work. WFH 3 days per week - we potentiall could rent a space for 50-100 a month I am thinking - just a guess though.
3) Its smaller than we would like to have - planning on renting a room out for a year or so, desk would be in the bedroom etc
4) We plan on having our first child in around 2 years and likely a second in quick succession - we are mid 30s

5) We are worried about it holding its value. Similar 2 beds in the same estate were built circa 2008 and are on the market for around 430k. They are B2/B3 so similar rating but slightly worse. They are also GFCH whereas this place is air to air, so no standing charge for gas plus more efficient or at least more comfortable temp all day.

Positive
1) Right next to phoenix park and a train station
2) Very good area - should hold value better?

3) Large park amenity right outside the apartments - think it is council owned so doenst affect maintenance charge
4) Move in likely early September

5) More than 1 car park space

6) Lower electricity costs due to neighbouring apartments heating ours (presuming we can get a fourth floor apt and not a ground floor)

7) Air to Air system - not sure what is in the houses but I think they may be air to water as it doesnt specify

8) Floor already fitted - I believe both the apts and houses provide similar fit out in terms of cooker, fridge,freezer

The alternative option we likely have is buying somewhere like Clonburris.

Issues

1. The surrounding areas are very rough (ronanstown/neilstown). I know people who have bought in Citywest and are having lots of trouble with teenagers from neighbouring areas coming in and causing havoc
2. Schools aren't established, community etc
3. I would likely need to wait 1+ years before I could secure a 3 bed as there is very high demand and it seems to be a lottery system - would spent 12-24k during this time period on rent plus would lose out on money I could get from renting out a spare room in the apratment
4. Longer commute to work for both of us (prob 20+ mins extra)

Positive:
1) 3 bed, larger square footage

2) Maintenance fees probably around 1k versus 2.5-3k in the apartment (somewhat offset by no need to pay for bins, landscaping costs etc)
3) Future proofed somewhat in terms of extra space


Im heavily leaning towards the apt due to ease of purchasing, location, energy savings (which will offset maintenance charges somewhat), schools and establishment of the neighbourhood.

Am I crazy purchasing a 2 bed apt for 500k (albeit the cost to me will be rough 340k mortgage plus 20k of my own deposit)

Thanks!

jethrothe2nd

It's an absolute no brainer if you are planning to have two kids. I guarantee you will seriously regret buying a 2 bed apartment.

csirl

Schools are a big issue in the Clondalkin area. If you have kids you'll need to send them.outside the area at least for their secondary years. As well as the inconvenience, you may have to send them to a fee paying school.- so extra expense.

Not for this thread, but there is very little choice and there are particular issues with the schools themselves, not the pupils. But because a high % of people send their kids outside the area it has the double whammy of creaming off the more academic kids. So many of the school dont offer the full range of subjects at homours level.

DonnieCorko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122275839#Comment_122275839

I should have said that I don't see this as our long term place. More so, taking advantage of the govt schemes currently in place for new builds and looking to get on the property ladder. Move out time of probably 5-10 years.

We are both early in our careers and have some investments coming down the line so shouldn't be an issue to upgrade in a few years.

DonnieCorko

This is a thought I had around living in a disadvantaged area and needing to send kids outside. My understanding is you must send a kid to a school in your catchment area or else pay for a private school outside it. Is that correct?

Sono

location location location.

DonnieCorko

This is my thoughts too. Any thought on good location but apt to bad location but a house? Location still wins out?

jethrothe2nd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276014#Comment_122276014

A huge amount can change in 5 to 10 years. I appreciate that there are other considerations, but I think if kids are on the agenda you would be sensible to make the decision based primarily on that. 2 small kids in an apartment, no garden, lugging buggies and shopping up and down. Only 1 parking space, and you might find yourselves needing 2 cars……

Who knows what the property market will be like when you want to move somewhere bigger. You could well end up stuck in the apartment.

DonnieCorko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276076#Comment_122276076

I understand what you are saying as it happened to many in the last recession, but our mortgage would only be 340k so presuming there could be a standard recession (not 2008 style in Ireland), we could lose 20% equity in terms of house prices falling, and we would have recouped almost all of that over the next two years subleasing.

I am not really concerned about the risk of that happening as lending rules are tight and not enough houses are being built, my main concern is whether in a healthy market, an apartment at 500k for a 2 bed isn't going to appreciate much, which might incline me to go for the house, but then there is the lost rent while waiting for it.

DonnieCorko

Also, I am thinking there is a fairly decent chance I could rent a parking spot for 100 quid a month, especially if there was a recession going on.

jethrothe2nd

I suppose part of what I'm urging is the consideration of the practical reality of living with 2 kids of any age in a 2 bed apartment. The financial element is only part of it.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276020#Comment_122276020

There are a lot of kids going to non-fee paying schools iin nearby areas such as Rathcoole, Kingswood and Lucan. But because these schools are oversubscribed and Clondalkin is outside their catchment areas they cant take the full volume of kids from Clondalkin who apply. Some will go a little further e.g. schools in Greenhills, Templeogue or Tallaght.

The "local' fee paying school is Kings Hospital, but its so oversubscribed most locals wont get a place. Other options are in the city centre e.g. Loretto or CUS have a few kids from the area. High School and Ashfield run school buses from Clondalkin village. Fee paying schools are very expensive - like having 2 x mortgages, so difficult if your not rich.

Mrs OBumble

Unless you use willing to use sex-selective abortion to be sure your kids are the same sex - then I would say neither option, keep looking.

Your worst nightmare would be to become sick or unemployed and in a 2-bed with opposite sex kids.

pc7

Would you look at somewhere like Swords? You'd get a 3 bed in your budget, near the airport so will likely hold value. Almost 500k for a 2 bed apartment seems madness when you add the management fees on too. There is the Swords express, 24 hour bus route and maybe one day a metro! Some areas are well established and settled. https://www.myhome.ie/residential/dublin-north-county/property-for-sale-in-swords?minbeds=3

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278066#Comment_122278066

I agree with you.

You can buy a house for that. Look at even Donabate, Rush

CuriousCucumber

I wouldn't buy in a bad area, regardless of the cost or size.
My wife has land in a bad area. We could have built a giant house for half our mortgage, but instead bought a smaller house in a better area. We've been living here for 5 years, and never once regretted our decision.

I'd recommend seeing if you could stretch your budget in anyway, and look for a house in the nicer area. We thought our house was expensive in 2019, but now seems like an absolute bargain

KaneToad

Always location. Always.

The worst house on the best street.

Or in your case, the smaller property on the better street.

I wouldn't give it a second thought.

jc1001

I'd agree with location location location as a few posters have mentioned, but would add in (possibly unhelpfully) apartment vs. house == no brainer, house, even if you have to go slightly off-piste on your initial location requirement. If it's of any help I remember buying an apartment as a first time purchase and being a bit dazzled by new build, newly kitted out, modern living etc. If I could turn back time I would have opted for a house a few miles out, every time. Management fees, noise, communal (potentially non-allocated) parking, lack of garden, lugging shopping up several flights of stairs (or lifts that contributed several hundred euro annually to your service change by way of maintenance), shared burdens of block issues for repairs for building quality deficits (Homebond guarantee next to useless in my experience), some tenants not cooperating / coughing up, including issues where obvious issues with ex. water damage from upstairs tenants end up being claimed on the block policy due to non-cooperation and then increase the premium, financial appreciation differences over the subsequent 10 years etc. I'd definitely advocate for a fixer-upper (/any) house where you can address issues on a scope that is just your property over time. Just my 2c. An apartment may be a better fit for you but in my case with the benefit of hindsight definitely wasn't. 24K potential loss on rental expenditure and loss of offset of room rental (renting out a room in your apartment has its own downsides obviously in terms of personal space etc.) just wouldn't be a factor for me personally as gauged over the longer term. Having said all that the extra 20 mins commute could be extremely relevant for you if there's no possibility of working remotely for 1 or more days per week. But (hoping I'm not sounding too patronising here) I would caution against excitement about signing on the line more quickly for something, colouring the potential for a better long-term outcome.

Drog79

Is there anything in the better area close to 500k except a house?

anewme

the only place I can think of in the Clondalkin area is that seven mills, or lock something, ie, the vast new Clonburris area.

Your challenge will not come from the nearby rough areas you mention (they are far enough away) but will be from your own area itself- This new town has a huge social element.

Id pick the 2 bed apartment over that.

I’m nit sure why tgese are your only two options.

boardanon6969

They raised the prices of the 2 beds in the Danehill development to over 500k so you can cross that off your list

DonnieCorko

Thanks again for the replies and Id love some more input based on the below if anyone has anything to add.

We visited the place and the apt we wanted was available, but the layout wasn't great. The second choice apt was actually great but it was gone. Hoping for a cancellation though or getting a place in the next block that should be finished soon, albeit with less apts available.

I wasn't too impressed with the quality of fittings, wooden counter top, some things a bit wonky like electrical gadgets fitted to the walls, doors a bit stiff sometimes, but from what I gather this is normal with new builds and a lot can be fixed in snagging.

Apparently there is concrete floors in each apt which should reduce noise a lot, but I could hear the hallway door slamming from the bedroom, which had a corridor between the outside hallway, so thats not great, but not a guaranteed sign of shoddiness.

The Air to Air system fitted seems to be a very good quality one from what I have read so that is a good sign at least. I am hoping that maybe eleccy bills could be around 100 per month in winter. Is this a pipe dream? This would make the difference to offset the maintenance charges.

Plus no social housing in the block too which could be good for values long term.

I can see 2 bed apts in the same estate that were built in 2010 going for around 430-480, which is probably a good sign that the new build premium on these apts isn't too much.

However, they are the same sq meter as the apartment I looked at, but looks much more spacious, but this could just be the pictures on the daft ad.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276429#Comment_122276429

This is good info, thank you. Definitely a consideration with the overall costs of living in one place to another to consider.

Are you aware of any new schools being built to specifically service clonburris?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122276319#Comment_122276319

100% get you. Realistically, we would want to leave after 5 years once the HTB clawback is finished, so it wouldn't be for a long time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278066#Comment_122278066

I have looked at new builds in swords but they will likely be out of my reach. A friend bought a 3 bed end of terrace new build last year for around 445. Now 2 bed terraced houses in Leixlip are going for 425, so it seems like anything closer to the city is going to be a 2 bed terraced house for 475 going forward, and a move in date of 1+ year (if we are lucky enough to win the lottery that is applying for one). Wondering if we should just bite the bullet and get an apartment that will be closer to the city and move in ready.

I don't want to get a second hand home if possible as I would like to keep as much of the deposit I have saved as possible, HTB facilitates this somewhat.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278620#Comment_122278620

I have been looking at Donabate and Rush and can get decent value there still, with probably less competition than somewhere like Swords etc.

However, I have read traffic is already insane and with thousands more people living there, it could get worse. I am WFH 3 days per week so that is fine on my end, but my gf needs to work in Dublin 6 days per week, both in the north side and on the south side, so the commute by car is important.

I have been considering though the savings made by being in Rush/Donabate in terms of getting a future proofed house with no maintenance fees, would offset the cost of the port tunnell which should make the commute more palatable.

It is a hard one though. Plus there seems to be a lot of social housing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122278645#Comment_122278645

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122279479#Comment_122279479

Location beats house is my initial thought, but I also am considering that perhaps these new towns like Clonburris may become little affluent areas in their own rights, and as more people go there, they become safer and more contained.

Unfortunately, we are limited to 500k with the govt grants, so its either get a place further out or somewhere closer like this apt.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122281181#Comment_122281181

Not new builds anyways. Apts in the local estate are going for 430-480k so these apts seem fairly priced.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122281202#Comment_122281202

That's exactly the other option. Do you know what the social element is within the estates? I presumed 10%.

Not the only options but the most likely options. Everywhere is severely oversubscribed and Id rather not wait 1.5 years to move in to a place like Swords etc, which isn't even guaranteed, that is if we are lucky enough to make the list for the next phase in mooretown for example.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122284548#Comment_122284548

Thats the daft ad. Theres still ones available from 485k.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122279988#Comment_122279988

Can I ask when it was that you bought this new build apt? We currently live in an 80s apt and would rarely hear neighbours, but I think that is because they are quiet. I expect some noise with apt living which is okay IMO.

Parking is assigned to each apt, there is a very large green area behind the apt which is being developed by the council, so thats not a huge issue, also there are lifts so stairs aint an isuse, plus I would hope build quality is much much better enforced so less likely to have fire safety issues, but of course you never know. However, we dont plan on being there for more that 5ish years id say so none of this should come out in the meanwhile, if it exists.

The main drawback is the service charge of 2660, but apt heating costs could be a lot less so you would save on that comapred to a house.

I also think the people buying these apts are locals to castleknock and the wealthier kind of person, so I think people would be respectful and pay their fees etc.

I was originally looking at fixer upper but it seems impossible right now, even if you have the cash you cant find someone.

Gf cant work remote, I can do 3 days, so commute is defo a factor, but the commute from castleknock/ashtown isn't actually that much better than Donabate for example (at least on google maps) if you use the port tunnell, which she would really only need to do maybe twice per week (for her 9am starts - she works odd hours mostly).

boardanon6969

@DonnieCorko Thanks for the information

Do you know if you can change the temperature in the apartment for the air to air units?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058356403/new-build-3-bed-house-in-bad-area-vs-2-bed-apt-in-good-area

People in Ireland are terrified of living in an apartment with children: living abroad, I've done both, and in my experience, IF there are decent parks and play areas within walking distance, living in a flat has a lot of advantages. When we moved to a house, we suddenly found ourselves cutting the grass and stuff at weekends, where before we'd have headed out for the day with the kids.

So, yes, a house with a garden is great, if it's where you want to live - but if you work out how to live in a flat with kids, it can be fine. And why can't two kids share a room? At least up to 9/10 if different sexes, and longer if same sex.

DonnieCorko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122294997#Comment_122294997

My issue with apt isn't necessarily having kids in one, its the relative appreciating/depreciating value compared to a house, as this would not be my long term home. The main question is around whether is makes sense financially.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295027#Comment_122295027

You talked about schools, so it seems like you're thinking about being there for a while.

SharkMX

Always go for the worst house/apartment in the best area. Especially if you ever plan to raise kids in the area.

ec18

two kids you won't have space in the apt. Apartments abroad are built for living with extra storage and parks. I have two small kids at the moment and couldn't even imagine how they would fit into some of the two beds I've previously lived in. Which were quite big

afir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295027#Comment_122295027

Exactly on the same boat. Looking at the same development. Booked an apartment but not sure about the value comparative to a house in a bit worst area 550k in ballucullen gate D24 or somewhere in dublin 15.

In my case I am single and full remote worker, so being in a 3bed house by myown is another bummer for me!

Any info regarding the appreciation / depreciation of an apartment vs house in 5years time is much appreciated.

DonnieCorko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122319933#Comment_122319933

Comparing to the area nearby, it seems like it is priced relatively fairly. Look at the apts in the same estate, they are going for around 430k asking price. So add 10% to that for the sale agreed price and it seems okayish for the lower priced apts in danehill (around 485k-500k). If it has a nice view of the green area in the back it should be worth a little more. Plus there is the new build premium. The other apts in the estate are b2/b3 so efficient but not as efficient as Danehill would be. I did some research into the air to air heating system they have in Danehill and it is top notch apparently. Same with some of the fittings like Roca bathroom ware.

If you are purchasing a place over 500K though you dont have the HTB so I personally wouldn't be buying a new build. Can get some very nice houses/apts for that money in better locations IMO and nicer too. I think its only a reason to buy there if availing of HTB and also the first home scheme in my case.

Check along the coast on the northside. Can get some decent value places there for under 500k, and the DART is pretty quick into town if you buy near it. Anywhere north of St Annes Park has three bus routes going down the coast road and into town via Raheny so it has very good transport links. Bayside could be a good shout.

afir

Ill get the HTB for this apartment. Not sure if the FHS is a good option. Also i domt like the one overlooking the green area as they have more noises from navan rd coming at them. I chose a on top floor south facing.

I found one house in D24 at ballycullen gate for 550k and one in kellystown D15 same price. Newly built. Are they going to appreciation more than 550/470 of this apartment? 470 because of 500k-30k.

Yes the air to air system was the best part of yhe house to be honest 😁

DonnieCorko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320010#Comment_122320010

Was the top floor under 500k? I get what you mean about the noise but you dont hear anything with the windows/doors closed. But we were looking at the ground floor one. Top floor may have more noise.

I think a second hand home would appreciate more IMO, so if that is your number one consideration and can afford the 500k without the FHS, I think that would be the better option. Its what I would do anyways. If you do plan on cancelling please let me know as I might try get your place if its under the 500K :-D

The one we wanted was taken so we will keep looking and come back to it when the last part of danehill is released if we still haven't found anything.

Im not sure about those areas you mentioned but alot of the new builds will have 20% social housing soon. I know Danehill has 0% as its going in the next two blocks.

FHS could be handy to reduce your mortgage payment. Could allow you save up to buy a rental/invest etc.

jc1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122290963#Comment_122290963

Hi @DonnieCorko Just seeing this - build was 2003 so quality / noise insulation may have been a little lacking. Neighbours upstairs put in wooden floors in contravention of block policy. Also self-closing fire doors banging during the night were an issue, and the odd party going through the block late at night. Pros and cons may vary. I found (unallocated parking in our complex) that the spaces near the main entrance were always taken by the more settled / retired tenants, and the only ones left whenever we returned from work were a good old walk from around the back (at least with bags of shopping), where the fire door couldn't be opened / have a code pad added for some fire regulation reason. I'd still go with a fixed upper / own door over a spanking new apartment but my reasons may be a bit old codgery / not relevant in your situation.

classynow

Hi @DonnieCorko it's really hard to get a house in Clonburris area, there's a massive demand. On Cairn's side (Seven Mills) I don't think any new houses will go on the market until they finish apartments/retail elements near the train station. I think that was mandated by SDCC. The houses that are currently being built are all reserved/sold.

For the social element, it will be owned by Respond housing. Good amount of it will be cost rentals, they even had applications open for the duplexes. Prices were €1.6k for 2 bed duplex, and €1.8k for 3 bed duplex. If you need more info you can pm.