EU to impose multibillion-euro tariffs on Chinese electric cars (thread bans see post #1)

MacronvFrugals

Mod Note: Thread bans, mad_lad

It seems to be happening very quickly, wonder how that will affect people awaiting deliveries

The European Commission is to notify carmakers on Wednesday that it will provisionally apply additional duties of up to 25 per cent on imported Chinese EVs from next month, according to people familiar with the decision. Brussels argues that Chinese EV makers benefit from subsidies that undercut their European rivals.

https://www.ft.com/content/0545ed62-c4b9-4e8a-80fa-c9f808e18385

Gumbo

Interesting times now for Tesla, BYD etc

BYD will be building in hungry soon, so this will help them I assume?

Tesla Model Y deliveries have been coming from Berlin in the latest batch so this will help them too I assume?

techman1

And eamon Ryan was saying last week that he expected the fall in electric car sales to be reversed by the arrival of cheap Chinese EVS, ursula just shot that in the foot with these tariffs, there will be alot less green meps in european parliament to complain. Ultimately the importance of European car industry and geopolitics trumps electric cars

MrMusician18

I suppose that kills Polestar in the EU and possibly everywhere.

Shame, I really liked the look of the 4.

Cookie_Monster

just cars, or heavy vehicles also?

Padre_Pio

Bound to happen. I've no doubt they're benefitting from subsidies and grants. A BYD Seal sells for a little over 25k euro in china. There's no way any European manufacturer could compete.

It's frustrating there's so much noise about green initiatives, electrification anf saving the planet, while at the same time making it more expensive for consumers.

I see they're going to add a 3euro monthly tariff to our ESB bills too.

eagerv

I don't think it will effect Tesla as much as some of the others. They will just switch more of our production to Germany. If Australia etc followed suit then it would be a different picture..

6.5x55 seller ammo

Still needs a majority of member states to agree. Sweden, Germany and Hungary have all come out against the tariffs, with the expectation of other Central European member states also opposed.

Further; Chinese retaliation in the form of luxury and dairy goods and products could cause pause for other members - including ourselves.

I just don’t see this getting across the line!

mcw92

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0612/1454318-eu-to-impose-multi-billion-euro-tariffs-on-chinese-evs/

Just now.

German car manufacturers will be partying at that news.

Gumbo

…..

Casati

No doubt non Chinese manufacturers will increase the price of their EV’s by a similar percentage to maximise profits

MrMusician18

End of the EV price war so. This along with reduced sales are likely to see a slowing in depreciation going forward.

Unless you have a Chinese car.

Stallingrad

This is good news. European car manufacturers could be decimated by subsidised Chinese EV's, we just can't compete with them on price in the West. Of course not great for consumers, but it may mean hundreds and thousands of jobs saved, and legacy manufacturers can battle on.

There are plenty of other EV's to choose from.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250513#Comment_122250513

Why is it good news for us? We don't have a domestic car industry, so they're is no upside here.

It's a bailout by another name for Volkswagen.

pad199207

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250513#Comment_122250513

Absolutely.

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249585#Comment_122249585

Doubtful Australia will follow suit. Their local manufacturing ceased in 2017, so they don't have any industry to protect and increased competition means lower prices for consumers according to this report.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-31/chinese-cars-third-most-popular-in-australia/103909144

The bulk of the cars from China in the graph below are basically Tesla M3, MY and BYD Atto 3.

I suspect we will see quite a few new Chinese car brands popping up there as they can use it as a test bed to learn how to export to western markets.

Stallingrad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250569#Comment_122250569

I'm not saying it's good news for Ireland or consumers in general, I'm saying it's good news for European car manufacturers and for the countless people that are employed by them.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250341#Comment_122250341

German manufacturers were the main ones pushing against it, the new Mini Cooper and Aceman are both manufactured in China and will be subject to the new tariff.

Exiled Rebel

We only just re-started selling beef last year (I know I know that's paused for the time being). It, along with powdered milk, are two vital exports to china to our farming community.

The pressure from the farming and food industry (e.g. Dairygold) on the government to vote against the tariffs will be enormous.

wassie

Theres good reason for the German's to oppose it, its less about EVs and more about everything else it makes.

https://www.reuters.com/business/us-overtakes-china-germanys-top-trading-partner-2024-05-09/

In 2023, China was Germany's top trading partner for the eighth year in a row, with volumes reaching 253 billion euros, although that was only a few hundred million ahead of the U.S.

Last thing Germany wants is EU goods being slapped with retaliatory tarriffs in a trade war.

frank730

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250513#Comment_122250513

how is this good news? this just means there will be no cheaper options for EVs

54and56

This is going to shake things up!!

Will it mean even less demand for new EV's but perhaps a positive bump in used EV values?

3d4life

…

https://aseannow.com/topic/1257405-electric-vehicles-in-thailand/?do=findComment&comment=18986557

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250569#Comment_122250569

There are thousands of people employed in Tier 1/2 automotive manufacturing in Ireland.

Granted, not huge, but putting a hold on state sponsored Chinese EVs flooding the market and decimating the European automotive industry, all cheered on by the Greens is a good thing in the long run. Do you want a situation where you can ONLY buy a Chinese EV?

7% of the EU's GDP, and 14 million jobs come from the automotive industry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250969#Comment_122250969

Not necessarily. What happens in 20 year time when there are no European OEMs' left due to the Chinese government subsidising EVs?

cunnifferous

This is short term pain for long term gain. We can't have the consolidation of all EV manufacturing in one country, especially one that is as prickly as China. That's where this is eventually going if nothing changes

BYD opening factory in Hungary. I presume these will be tariff free.

wassie

Will be interesting to see what the UKs response to this is. Industry talks is that they may need to follow EUs lead. Conversely, other views are that it could take a different approach in order to attract further Chinese investment in UK.

https://archive.ph/Av0Om

May well become an Election issue I suspect.

AMKC

Stupid decision by the EU this is. The Chinese will just reduce the price of there cars even more and still sell them cheaper than the European Legacy makers and all the other Legacy makes too. It will just make things worse for these Legacy makes. In the meantime do the EU will be making a nice pocket out of it.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122251858#Comment_122251858

it would still depend if they are receiving illegal state aid.

ted1

How will they reduce the price ? If it’s by more state support tariffs will Increase

Hurrache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122251992#Comment_122251992

And more tariffs will subsequently applied if there's an increase in state aid.

What do you think would happen if EU manufacturers were shut out of the market if Chinese manufacturers dominated? They'd hardly keep their prices artificially low if they had no competition.

AMKC

No it's not. As I said in my last post the Chinese will just price there cars even lower coming here so these tariffs will be meaningless to the price of Chinese vehicles coming here. They can afford to do that. The Chinese cars will still be cheaper than any from the European Legacy makers and they will continue to suffer while the Chinese benefit. But sure The EU will make some money from it now too so all good.

Hurrache

Like I said, they can reduce their prices as low as they want but tariffs will negate them.

And I shouldn't have to point it out, we are the EU.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252022#Comment_122252022

you haven’t explained how they’ll just keep

Lowering the prices. ……

k123456

I would not be surprised if BYD ceases all sales in Ireland, they have 3 or 4 garages / dealers here , hardly worth the effort , if price increases and lower sales are imminent

Hurrache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252208#Comment_122252208

They'd hardly avail of state aid now would they in order to manipulate the market? 😀

MacronvFrugals

So tariffs on SAIC are 38% but this doesn't include the below existing 10% tariff, so an MG will be nearly 50% more expensive

The duties will be applied on top of existing 10 per cent tariffs on all Chinese EVs

Padre_Pio

I wonder how China will respond. It's no secret BMW, Audi and VW make billions from the Chinese market and have partnerships with Chinese auto makers. Sure the top end BMWs are designed more for the Asian market than European at this stage.

This could be a double edge sword.

Danzy

We are effectively in a cold war with China and they'll keep coming for us all.

Whether that be helping Russia continue fighting in Ukraine, helping Iran keep the middle east aflame and on and on.

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252223#Comment_122252223

Unlikely. BYD is in the top 10 car makers globally and the biggest EV maker. They arent going anywhere soon.

As @Gumbo posted earlier, BYD are currently building a factory in Hungary. Recent reports also state they are looking for a location for a potential second factory.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/byd-says-build-second-eu-142855980.html

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250569#Comment_122250569

How anyone can see this as anything but a bailout for fat, pampered, lazy German carmakers that just want to keep on doing business as usual just so they don't have to innovate or, god help us, offer reasonably priced EVs to anyone.

They just want to keep building their overpriced plastic barges without having to invest too heavily.

wassie

As has been mentioned in this thread already, the Germans are not supportive of this measure.

This was part of the press release from the German Automotive Industry body, the VDA published yday.

The German automotive industry is in favour of free and fair trade. As a matter of principle, any protectionist measure, including additional tariffs as well as unjustified and market-distorting subsidies, restricts free trade and harbours the risk of trade conflicts that are ultimately detrimental to all sides. The potential damage that could be caused by the measures now announced may be greater than the potential benefits for the European - and in particular the German - automotive industry.

https://www.vda.de/en/press/press-releases/2024/240612_Statement_Anti-subsidy_investigation

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250341#Comment_122250341

Did you "thinkabouit" before you posted that? It is the opposite, German car manufacturers will be very hard hit by Chinese counter measures. For VW along, China is by far the biggest market for their cars.

These tariffs are a very bad idea, they will inevitably lead to prices of cars going up, not going down like they should.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122251751#Comment_122251751

The European automotive industry is going to be decimated anyway as EVs are far less complex machines to manufacture and hardly any precision machining is required.

And quite frankly I don't care too much for the European, or rather largely German automotive industry as it's lied and cheated without consequence here in Europe.

The truth is the European Market has been caught badly behind as the Chinese started investing in EVs and batteries 15 years ago to get their deserved market and technological advantage that they have today. Volkswagen on the other hand have decided to divert €60bn from their EV budget back into ICE development. They deserve their loss of market share.

The way the tariffs themselves have been set it's about geopolitics and not trying to find a fair price. Seemingly the Commission think that €60k+ is the fair price for the Byd Seal.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252271#Comment_122252271

because it’s not. State aid is illegal for companies in Europe

There’s a good explanation here:

Hurrache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252271#Comment_122252271

The irony here is that you're railing against what you see as a bailout for one set of manufacturers when the root of the issue is state funding for another set.

Hurrache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252311#Comment_122252311

Problem with their statement though is that it doesn't appear to be fair trade?

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252385#Comment_122252385

EV's aren't "far" less complex to produce. Its swings and roundabouts really. I had the frunk tub out of a Mustang Mach E the other day, and its every bit as complex as any other car I've seen. (A major part of the drivetrain had failed).

Tesla (and others it must be said) ripping every bit of luxury out of their cars interior in order to compete on price tells you where complexity and cost savings are most easily found.

Every single OEM was cheating emissions tests - VW were really just the scapegoats. Do you believe that the Chinese have been, and always will be squeaky clean?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252311#Comment_122252311

For Germany, whose biggest trading partner is China, any sanctions range far beyond just the automotive industry.

The rest of the press release effectively calls on the Chinese to limit their subsidies instead - so they understand the issue, just see a different solution.

Today's announcements make it clear that the extent and nature of subsidies in China are a challenge. The Chinese government is therefore now also called upon to signal its willingness to engage in dialogue in view of the facts

maidhc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252379#Comment_122252379

the economic theory is obviously the opposite, below cost selling (by way of state subsidies here) eliminates domestic competition and prices ultimately rise. Of course it doesn’t always work that way, but as someone else said, “we are the eu” and overall it’s better we protect our industry be it vag, bmw, airbus, zf, alstom or whoever.

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249530#Comment_122249530

Where have you seen the announcement on the €3 monthly increase for electricity ?

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122252391#Comment_122252391

That link got flagged for some reason.