Time to randomise names on polling papers?

dulpit

With the European elections today people had super long voting papers to work their way through. There is a very real chance that the people towards the bottom of these papers will be at a disadvantage when it comes to voting preference. Especially for lower order votes (e.g. 3rd/4th/5th preference), which might not be super important to the voter but have a very real impact on the candidate.

I know in Australia they randomise the names to avoid what they call donkey voting (where they vote for candidates just in the order they appear on the paper), is this something we could or should look at?

Sam Russell

How could you find your first preference on a long ballot paper with 25 randomised order of names?

Perhaps 50% of ballots could be printed in reverse order, but even that is daft.

gipi

It was amusing to see my local council ballot paper this morning - first name on the paper (alphabetical, of course) was the candidate who had to withdraw because she got "go-away" money from a developer.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231950#Comment_122231950

I’ve a to no issue with go away money.

If someone wants to build beside me, is be annoyed but liken honestly I might I my be annoyed to the tune of 10k

Or whatever. , but I wouldn’t hide it.

anyway good idea about randomising names. People do benefit from alphabetical order.
.

My kid starts with A and she diffidently benefits from a superior complex with her name been called first in every class.

Former Former Former

There would 100% be accusations of rigging the order of the ballot

You fix a problem that doesn’t exist and create a brand new one

endacl

It was quite a short ballot really, once you filter out all the headbangers and arsrholes.

NIMAN

They need to get bigger booths.

My slip was twice as long as the kittle shelf I had to lean on. Was quite awkward.

breezy1985

Easier to just ban from voting anyone who is too stupid to be able to read 25 names on a list.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058355006/time-to-randomise-names-on-polling-papers

It's an interesting proposition but I'd like to see a bullet proof, guaranteed no interference randomisation process.

I agree about people being at a disadvantage due to the number standing for election.

I'm not sure it's just those at the bottom though.

I have a sneaking suspicion that quite a few voters only went to the 5th or 6th preference who if there were only 10 or 11 on the ballot paper would have gone all the way down.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232002#Comment_122232002

Aussie system is random per ballot paper. Much more expensive to print.

DubCount

Maybe print 2 columns to make it easier to see all candidates.

Honestly though, 27 candidates is nuts. Maybe require a certain threshold of council support or TD support like for presidential elections.

AndrewJRenko

Is there any evidence of an actual problem here?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232577#Comment_122232577

Two column ballot papers cause huge increases in spoiled votes and also people voting for the entirely wrong person

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232603#Comment_122232603

An inexplicable level of elected reps have surnames that start with letters earlier in the alphabet, particularly considering many of the most common Irish surnames do not.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232603#Comment_122232603

I would say definitely, i still have a Yellow Pages directory, and a lot of the listings start with AA, AAA, AAAA etc.

Random listing would eliminate any morons, and there has to be some who just go 1234 from the top down.

Strumms

the majority of people I’d imagine have their minds made up before they go to the polling station. So it’s probably inconsequential as to the order.

I second the suggestion though that the booths were too small. The counters in them were tiny……….

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232723#Comment_122232723

And a bit open to passers by.

Economics101

There has been some serious academic research on what was called Alphabet Voting by Christopher Robson and the late Brendan Walsh:

https://aei.pitt.edu/98843/1/GRS71.pdf

If it was a significant issue in 1973, how much more so now?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232623#Comment_122232623

Evidence?

smokingman

That nazi Barret was at the top of mine.

I'm with the above posters who would be on for banning anyone dumb enough not to look at all the options.

Seriously, this isn't hard. If you've ever put a square peg into a square hole, you can do something as simple as this.

This isn't idiocracy

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232314#Comment_122232314

i wonder do they select a few random orders and do them in batches or is every one random.

with 10 candidates there's 3.6 million possible orders

endacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232603#Comment_122232603

Not at all. I for one am delighted to see the right wing dickhead vote fragmenting itself into impotent splinters.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232623#Comment_122232623

The fianna fail third choice candidate in MNW was second from top on the ballot and could benefit from the civil war / 'party first' vote.

Although having said that, their three candidates were in the first seven of a 27 strong field... These lads know what they're doing

thesandeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232623#Comment_122232623

Young Dev found a way around that years ago.

thesandeman

I've been thinking about this for a few days now and so far I haven't come up with any major negatives.

Would it be an idea to send out a "dummy" voting paper(s) along with our polling cards?

It would give people a chance to study all the candidates an and do searches etc on the unfamiliar ones (even though some this time don't even seem to exist on the internet).

Voters could familiarise themselves where the candidates are on the paper or even fill it in and bring it with them and transfer them to the official voting paper in the polling station. It would be handy for elections with a stupid amount of candidates like today.

Once I got to around #14 today I couldn't remember who I wanted to give my lowest preferences to as many of them were unfamiliar to me. If I already had a copy with me I could have the paper filled in in a couple of minutes.

I don't think there would be an issue with privacy or GDPR as your "homework" is in your possession at all times.

Thoughts?

Sam Russell

Actually, a crib sheet is not a bad idea.

Say, a blank voting list with, say, room for 5 or ten spaces to allow the voter to enter name, preference, position on the ballot paper.

I am sure the designer of the voting card, who left off the title of the card so had no idea what it was, could design it.

RobertFoster

The ballot topper for the local elections in Ashbourne had supposedly changed his name to Ashbourne-Loftus due to his love of the town. I wonder if he'd have done the same if running in Wicklow or Westport.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233197#Comment_122233197

Guaranteed that a fair few of those would end up in the ballot box by people thinking its either the actual ballot paper, or it lets them "vote twice"

They wouldn't get counted so the latter isn't an issue but could easily cause some people to not actually vote.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233042#Comment_122233042

That is the evidence.

There's 48 TDs from A→D, 49 if O Cuiv did manage that trick to get up the ballot; out of 160.

The distribution of surnames in this country does not support that being proportional, particularly with the significant concentration of surnames beginning with M (Murphy which is far and away the most common surname; any Mc variant) and O

This 1901 list has numbers; yes its a significant amount of time ago but the top ten is still mostly the same now so things really haven't changed much.

https://www.barrygriffin.com/surname-maps/irish-tops/Ireland/1901/

https://extra.ie/2023/01/07/news/irish-news/irelands-most-common-surname-revealed

1901: Murphy, Kelly, Walsh, Ryan, Sullivan, Byrne, O'Brien, Doyle, Reilly, Gallagher

2021: Murphy, Kelly, Ryan, Walsh, Byrne, O'Brien, O'Connor, O'Sullivan, McCarthy, and Doyle.

From tallying, people voting 1→X down the ballot is exceptionally rare, but people voting for their favoured candidate(s)/party and then filling the rest in alphabetically is common enough; as is someone voting 1-2-3 for a specific party in alphabetical order. But you're going to demand evidence of that now too, even though its absolutely impossible to provide, aren't you?

Take a look at areas with 3 or more same party candidates today - lots of FF, FG, SF; some Aontu and Labour - and there'll be a pattern again.

thesandeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233282#Comment_122233282

A big SPECIMEN or something could be printed across them. The staff in the polling station would be giving them the real one anyway so there shouldn't be any confusion.

suvigirl

Wow, 30 years I have been eligible to vote, and I literally just found out yesterday the candidates are in alphabetical order 😂

I have never looked or taken any notice of their order! Seems so obvious now...….....

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233297#Comment_122233297

When I voted, I was told to show the punched part to the staff as I posted it into the already stuffed box.

So they were checking for 'alternative' ballots. Never had that before in all my years voting.

magicbastarder

The answer is simple. A circular ballot paper so no one is actually first. You can also retain them in alphabetical order too.

Field east

IMO , as a nation we take our voting seriously and we are very nuanced when it comes to voting. Those that give their no 1 to the first face on the ballet paper,their no 2 to the second face on the ballet , and so no, must be EVEN MORE REAR than hens teeth. You would wonder why there even make the effort to vote

. The current design of the voting paper is sufficiently fit for purpose - once one is familiar with the alphabet. Once you know who your 1,2,3, , and so on is you can go down through the list and in case there is confusion you have the candidates photos to verify that you have the right one - am thinking of ‘Cuiv ‘ ‘ O Cuiv’ here.

The MOST IMPORTANT THING about voting- for those that are serious/genuine voters is that they do not have the same number town twice - which is possible if you lose track of ‘ your thoughts’ as you go through the big long list as that would spoil your paper. So a check back would be desirable before ballet boxing it.

A VERY BIG HELP in voting is to write out the order of your voting- say ,at least for the first six- before you turn up at the voting station. I think that all of the local papers- and national papers for the Euros had a list , including photos, of who was going. Forward- so no excuses there.

One would swear from some of the posts here that this voting thing ‘ is an awful drag on our lives and is there anything we can do to have it less interfering in our lives’. . For ‘ crying out loud’ we are only asked once every four to five years to give a few minutes to apply our minds to something that is VERY IMPORTANT and is very sacred

And finally, Millions in this world ARE STRUGGLING in this world to win the right to vote WITHOUT INTERFERENCE

magicbastarder

Comment on the rte coverage that a lot of the ballot papers weren't filled out past preference 3.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233042#Comment_122233042

See my post immediately prior to yours.

Cookie_Monster

Would be an interesting experiment to run the next Euros in reverse alphabetical order and make it known well in advance. Just to see 1) what the candidate names all are and if there is any significant weighting change and 2) whether those with later alphabetical surname candidates do better than previously.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232307#Comment_122232307

I have a sneaking suspicion that quite a few voters only went to the 5th or 6th preference who if there were only 10 or 11 on the ballot paper would have gone all the way down.

On my local Election balott paper I voted for all 10.

On the European one I voted for all bar two who I gave a vote of 1000 and 10,000. So if it comes to my vote being needed for either of them candidates it's useless and I am OK with that of it means they do not get into Europe again.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233746#Comment_122233746

Ignoring AMKC's eccentricities, this does raise a question. If the voting paper has an error further down, is it counted as valid until the error is reached?

So if somebody gave 1, 2, 3 correctly but then skipped 4 or put 4 down twice - would the vote be valid until it needs to be transferred beyond the 3rd preference?

Sam Russell

@AMKC On the European one I voted for all bar two who I gave a vote of 1000 and 10,000. So if it comes to my vote being needed for either of them candidates it's useless and I am OK with that of it means they do not get into Europe again.

If you put any number not in sequence, starting at one, on your ballot paper your vote will be determined to be spoilt. So putting 1,000 and 10,000 for your last choice will spoil the vote - this is because it could identify your vote - simple schoolboy error.

Even when voters, faced with two ballot papers, vote 1,2,3 on the first paper, and then continue with 4,5,6 on the second paper will have the second paper deemed invalid.

This has been explained widely.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233853#Comment_122233853

See my post above. Any mark that can identify the voter renders the vote invalid. Putting the same number twice then that vote is invalid - even for their first choice.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233911#Comment_122233911

This would not be that, though

It would be valid til 3 then non transferable

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233197#Comment_122233197

First time voter in this house printed off the list of candidates from local authority and returning officer websites and brought their marked list with them. Seems a bit over the top be sending more paper to EVERYONE when only a minority of people will use this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233180#Comment_122233180

I'm delighted about that too, it's not really relevant here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232645#Comment_122232645

It's not the yellow pages though, it's an election. We'd need fairly solid evidence to justify changing the current system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233293#Comment_122233293

We really shouldn't be thinking about turning the current system upside down based on a single snapshot. Has this trend been steady over time. Did these candidates really get an advantage, if you look at their experience levels, their party support, the broad expectation of whether they get elected or not.

I've tallied multiple general and local elections. I don't recall ballots filled out mostly in alphabetical order as being a thing at all at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233194#Comment_122233194

The bould Beverly kept the 'Cooper' addition long after she ditched Mr Cooper.

Photo credit to https://electionsireland.org/images/posters/2002general/mayo.cfm

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233664#Comment_122233664

Fair play to the folks who manage to produce an analytical paper like that with no internet access, no Excel access. Having said that, it is a single snapshot from 65 years ago, so it's not really enough to suggest that there is a major issue here.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234114#Comment_122234114

I'm not so sure the age of the publication matters all that much. Voting by writing 1, 2, 3 etc on a piece of paper is one of the few areas where the nature of the problem, and the technology has hardly changed. I would argue that alphabetical voting might be more of an issue in an era whan there are 20+ names on a ballot paper compared with the good old days when there were generally far fewer candidates.

But yes, fair dues to Brendan Walsh (and his co-author), a really great mind.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233409#Comment_122233409

Really? Thats very interesting alright, I wonder if they have tip offs about planned attempts at ballot stuffing?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233559#Comment_122233559

Yes , very good post !

Is it so hard to read a list of people albeit a long list , and then number them based on preference ? No , it's not .

Were people waiting to decide as they put their numbers on the sheet ?

Surely people had their preferences worked out before going in to vote ?

If not I can only say there is something seriously amiss with the electorate .and op we may as well tell.people how to vote if we don't order ballot papers alphabetically .

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234106#Comment_122234106

The rules are the ballot must only carry the numbers on order of preference, and not be identifiable to the voter. Any deviation and it is invalid.

Thems the rules.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234326#Comment_122234326

Not sure what they were checking for.

RoTelly

TBH it is possibly time to make the constituencies smaller with potentially just 2 seats, or suggest a system were by you must get 10,000 signatures to appear on the ballot.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234615#Comment_122234615

1,2,3,4,4 is not identifiable and would be accepted up to 3

Read the rules and the 2015 supreme court judgement