Informal Warning - can I go on sick leave due to mental health problems or should I leave?

Kiiyuka

Hello,

I am looking for some advice. I been working for this company for two years. Everything was great at the start, I almost felt love-bombed by the senior staff member above me.. Then they went on a leave for about 7 months and once they came back, everything changed. I am dealing with constant problem finding, micromanagement and everything has to be done their way. I noticed they keep all the simple work for themselves while delegating to me the harder work that needs multiple layers of approval. This person also most likely talks badly to me to the manager…

And so…. I got an informal warning about my performance right before my annual leave, even though a week earlier I was told by the same manager that my performance is "ok", but we can look into some training opportunities. I am supposed to improve my "attention to detail" and "time management". In my work, I depend on a lot of approvals, and my senior staff member is just making this process extremely long and painful. The job has become extremely stressful and my dormant depression is coming back to life with physical symptoms…

I don't know what to do though - should I go on a sick leave for a while to think it through and let my mental health calm down a bit? I know the company will make problems over sick leave though and this is something I am very worried about. Can they fire me disciplinary on sick leave?

Or should I just quit and hope that I will find new position quick enough?

Thank you for reading and all advice!

Mrs OBumble

You can go on sick leave for whatever your GP will sign you off for.

You're probably only entitled to a few days sick leave though, and after that you'd be on Illness Benefit.

Have you been job hunting? Alternative can you speak honestly with your manager about the situation?

Kiiyuka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122217274#Comment_122217274

Hi, thank you for your reply! My company provides few weeks of paid sick leave, I don't qualify for Illness Benefit, because I don't think I have enough contributions…

I have been job hunting, but so far no much of a luck. It has only been a month though, and I know that job market is very busy, so I am still hoping.

I will attempt to talk once again with my manager about this, but I doubt it… She almost didn't let me speak during the informal warning, so I am unsure whether she will be open to listening to me on the next meeting, but I will definitely try.

Jim2007

People are usually on their best behaviour when you start and cut you a lot of breaks while you are learning, but after six months or so their expectations of you is that you do the job you were hired to do. And in that respect, I don't see in your post is any complaint about being asked to do work outside your job description or profile…. So whether or not you are being asked to do work outside your competence would go to the core of your complaint.

As for the behaviour of senior staff, what they get up to is really the responsibility of their manager and it may well be that their workload is such that they only have time to take up the slack on simple tasks in your area. But that is speculation on my part and a view from below on your part. But I'd be very careful about going down that path because you are basically criticizing the way the manager does their job and the senior people they have trust in, so you'd need to be very sure of your facts.

As for going on sick leave immediately after a warning, while you absolutely should follow the advice of your doctor, but you should also be prepared to attend the company doctor as well, if requested to do so by the company.

I think you need to consider if you are being asked to work within the job profile you signed up to, if their expectations are realistic, if you think you can meet them and even if you are motivated to try. It may well be that this situations is not well suited to you, in which case you'd be happier to move on if possible.

blackbox

Was your manager specific about the improvements he/she wants you to make?

Are you able to improve?

Kiiyuka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122217836#Comment_122217836

Hi Jim, thank you for your reply! I joined a company to do X work, but then a good bit of my focus got shifted over to tasks outside of my job description. On top of it, I was never trained to do that job, apart from about an hour hand-over from a previous worker. So I am divided between two positions, kind of.

I will of course not criticize the senior member or the manager about how the work is handled, though I do know what my senior is spending most of her time on and good bit of it is not work.

When it comes to a company doctor - how will the mental health be assessed?

I will try to once again talk with the manager about the warning, the improvements expected and how we can make it work, though the atmosphere in the office is heavy and if it will continue to impact my mental health then I will look at sick leave or just quitting and moving on.

Kiiyuka

One more question if you guys don't mind - Are warnings passed on in references?

References tend to be very vague but you can normally decipher what they're trying to say.

If you could get away with leaving before having another job lined up I would recommend that versus taking sick leave for mental health reasons. It's something that will live with you when you apply for mortgage protection insurance, life insurance, travel insurance etc. it's bullshit, but it's how it works

HildaOgdenx

Take one thing at a time. Don't worry about a company doctor and so forth just yet. That would tend to be something well down the line if you ended up being on long-term sick leave.

Does your company have an Employee Assistance Programme? If so, look into it. It should be helpful, to have a chat with someone, especially as you feel your mental health is suffering. It's a confidential set up, and nothing is disclosed to your employer.

If there's anyone you can talk to, in real life, to get things out of your system, that can help too. I worked with a micromanager and it can be very wearing.

As regards talking to your manager, I think documenting everything in relation to your role, and being very factual is important. If the sign off process you mentioned, for example, is one of the reasons they mentioned time management, are there any ways you can see that the process could be improved upon? If so, put them forward when you meet.

Keep your eyes open for opportunities elsewhere.
I hope that things improve for you.

Mind yourself.

Flinty997

Personally I would look to move under another manager or another job. I think that would be the best stress relief.

I also think have daily log of all tasks and times and training given is important, treat it like you're a contractor billing per hour. Document every task as if your handing it over to someone else. Personally I also share this with whomever I report to, via email so they can't claim ignorance of it, and have an opportunity to improve the process. In my experience it over loads the micromanager and knowing it's all documented they back off. But might be different in your case who knows.

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122218166#Comment_122218166

Hi, but how would going out sick with a mental health issue follow you when getting mortgage protection, life insurance, travel insurance etc. ? If you simply just dont disclose it when applying how would they ever know ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225111#Comment_122225111

Well yes you could not disclose it, and hope it never comes up in any claims. But getting caught out is a world of hurt.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225111#Comment_122225111

To go out sick, you need a cert from a GP.

So your GP records show you as having been diagnosed with a mental illness.

These can be checked at various later stages.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225111#Comment_122225111

Nobody is going to hand you out several hundred thousand Euros in compensation without checking. In fact there is a entire profession devoted to figuring out the compensation that should be paid - loss adjusters. On top of which it would be a criminal offense to obtain money by deception.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122219424#Comment_122219424

This exactly @ OP ^^

Take it from me, was thru all of this, was off sick with mental illness due to job for 6 months, went back and made redundant - happy days (was there 13yrs)

Take one step at a time - if your feeling stressed / depressed - go see your Doc, but also if you are in a bad way, a week or 2 off sick aint goin to change a thing. I wudnt worry about company doc, they really cannot contradict your own GP.

If it is a bad situation the only thing you can do is leave really..

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058354445/informal-warning-can-i-go-on-sick-leave-due-to-mental-health-problems-or-should-i-leave

I feel for you - you described there perfectly my exact situation from 2016 to 2020. I half joke my former boss was the only person saved by Covid, without the lockdown I may have snapped and throttled him.

The "love bombing" is a great description - that's what it felt like for me, "oh the team revolves around you, you're the key player .." and then taking work from me and giving to an idiot he'd hired - where I would have to ultimately fix it but to no credit.

These days thankfully mental health is treated the same as a physical illness and so if you do get signed off by GP, no one would judge. Whatever is best for you is the best call.

Thw one thing I would stress is trying to talk to colleagues - I thought for a couple of years I was alone; transpired of a 9 man team 6 had complained to HR about him and others knew what he was like and loathed him.

You're not alone. my best wishes.

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122218158#Comment_122218158

No. References these days are mostly generic and of little real value e.g Joe worked in X company for Y years from ZZ to ZZ.

Overall, your real issue is your manager’s expectation relative to your capacity to do the job. There are many variables contributing to this scenario.

Firstly, are the manager’s expectations of you reasonable and, if not, why? If you are being asked to do things you weren’t trained for or which require certain skills that you never claimed to have, that’s not your fault. The manager has a responsibility to do more to bring to up to the level required up to and including a performance improvement plan. An informal warning should be one of the last resorts, not one of the first.

Secondly, if your performance is being called into question, you have a reasonable entitlement to specific examples rather than vague “impressions” or “feelings” on the part of the manager.

You should have something akin to a role profile that outlines the required tasks against which your performance will be measured. This process usually takes place near the beginning of the year. It’s an opportunity to discuss expectations relative to skills with an opportunity to discuss training requirements. Dealing effectively with several layers of authority within an organisation sounds like a fairly significant task that, if it doesn’t come naturally, would require at least some element of training.

Without knowing the manager’s take, it’s difficult to be conclusive but if you’re being set up to fail you may need to assert yourself a bit more and respectfully challenge the manager’s position rather than just accepting it.

Kiiyuka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122219424#Comment_122219424

Thank you so much for your comment and your kind words, they are really appreciated! My company does have EAP and I was talking with a consultant, but they didn't really help apart from eat healthy, exercise, meditate and to go to GP if that isnt helping. I do all those things and anyway feel so anxious and stressed about going into office…

I have very supportive family and friends and took some time to vent out to them, which really helped. They didn't fully understand the extend of micromanagement 😅

I will definitely start documenting everything to do with my job and any interactions I have with the senior person and manager. I have some suggestions, just hoping she will listen to me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225906#Comment_122225906

Hey, thanks for your comment and I am sorry you had to go through similar experience! Its really nerve wrecking and Im glad that you got out of it! I do hope nobody will judge me on the mental health sick leave. I spoke with my GP and he is ready to give it to me, along with some medication to help me calm down and sleep…

My company is very "shush" about stuff… I did talk about this senior person to some of my colleagues to feel my ground, but because none of them are working below her, they don't experience the same thing as I do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225878#Comment_122225878

Thanks! Can I ask, did the company bother you a lot during the sick leave? Did they try to prove that you are not sick? When I had covid and worked from home instead of hybrid, the HR overruled my GP's cert and company nurse's opinion that I should stay at home for another week to get fully better…. so… yeah.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225997#Comment_122225997

Thanks for your reply! I always thought the references are long and complicated… Thanks for clarifying that. I am not saying I am perfect, because I do occasionally make mistake and I always try to recover from them as soon as possible and not to make them again. A week prior to the informal warning, I had a meeting with this manager about training opportunities, which I was so excited about. During that meeting, she said that my performance is "okay" and that she wants to help me achieve the success. I was so happy I will get extra training… and then boom, informal warning. From a manager who barely speaks to me 5 minutes in a week. So I must admit, I feel undervalued and treated less. I just wish she would come up to me and speak as if I am normal human being and part of the team…. but I guess I am not.

I have a job profile, this is what I originally applied for, but as I was working, a good bit of my focus got shifted over to tasks outside of my job description. On top of it, I was never trained to do that job, apart from about an hour hand-over from a previous worker. So I am divided between two positions, kind of. The manager doesn't really seem too keen to try and train me because there is no budget.

We have quarterly performance meetings and everything was fine. Few mistakes were mentioned which was fair, but she also mentioned that improvements were made on my side. Unfortunately, my job is creative, so while there is no right or wrong way to do something, there is definitely a lot of opinions….

no they didn’t bother me.. out of the six months think I had to go to company doc 3 times, odd update from HR that’s it…

You would have a case against the company if they forced you to go to work despite GP sayingg otherwise!! Companies can’t / should not get away with that behaviour

Tbh honest sounds like a Sh*t place to work!

HildaOgdenx

the HR overruled my GP's cert and company nurse's opinion that I should stay at home for another week to get fully better…. so… yeah.

Well that is completely wrong. They are HR, they are not medical experts. I'd definitely be trying to get out of there.

Mind your health, that's really really important.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225906#Comment_122225906

The fact that HR had already had 6 complaints and nothing had been done captures exactly how these situations sadly end up in 99% of cases. You were the 7th, and I have no doubt there was an 8th, 9th…

Leaving is the only way out

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122228554#Comment_122228554

Indeed - as the poster earlier said, HR and unions will represent ALL staff, so bullying will go on unchecked.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122228554#Comment_122228554

All it means is that you are making wild assumptions. Actually we have no idea if all or any of those complaints have merit and we have only heard the OP's side of this complaint. Now you my choose to base your opinions on whatever limited information you wish, but your opinions are not facts.

Do you have any idea how many complaints HR team receives even in a day? You have people complaining about colleagues leaving the door open, slurping their coffee, the size of the pot plant beside their desk, the lack of a pot plant, that the dustbin should be emptied twice a day and the list goes on.

I would not draw any conclusions about the work environment based on that.

In any case HR dept's are inherintantly biased, they work for the company, NOT your interest.. And that is a fact..

Despite what the previous poster advised, if you feel HR is not taking this seriously I would leave if possible.. They are only the cases you know abt, HR dont go around spreading information like this..

When I had my issue I took a case against the manager, in hindsight what a waste of time.. they only interviewed colleagues (who of course are not going to say anything and make their life difficult)., You might say well who else can they talk to, but how are they going to make an informed decision if they do not..

Talked to solicitor at the time and he was saying that it was pointless as how is the investigator qualified to carry out a fair, thorough investigation etc..

and of course when I spoke to the investigator at the time, when she explained over the phone and then what she actually wrote in the report were very different… the whole process was just a complete farce..

Any grievance policy that a company has is not worth the paper it is written on, unless of course if their is actual physical evidence i.e. bodily harm etc.. being treated unfairly, bullying etc can very difficult to prove.. in most cases it is you word against theirs, so who do you think they will side with?

For me it ended up in redundancy, so happy days. unfortunately other ppl might not be so lucky, and are forced to resign.. which is very unfortunate but it is the way it is..

greengirl1968

No job is worth your mental well-being. Perhaps talking to an employment agency about your skills, what jobs are out there and what the best ones would be for you. Update your CV. Get signed up to the big online job sites.

Sometimes no matter what you do you cannot please some people in the workplace and its not worth sacrificing your mental health trying

vixdname

…………………….

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225496#Comment_122225496

So in what specific circumstances would mental health go against you getting A. travel insurance ? or B. mortgage protection or C. life insurance if A. You just had a physical accident on holidays and required hospitalization, B. You got sick and died of natural causes and C. You got sick and died of natural causes ?

Kiiyuka

Hi guys,

Continuation of work drama. I went to my GP, explained the situation and got an entire week off. He is not one to give certs lightly, so I was so happy… I sent it over to my company, following all the required procedures….. And straight away got an email back that I will need to see a company doctor. Really? In a first week of being sick? I don't understand…. I got diagnosis from my GP, I got medication, I got recommendations, WHY do I need to see ANOTHER doctor?

Do I need to agree to a company doctor? Should I take someone with me? Should I signed up for a Union (GP suggested that).

Thank you…

con___manx1

refuse to see the company doctor. They are paid by the company to sing the company's song.

I have heard some unreal stories about company doctors.

Just tell them you have covid as well as your other alment. loads of people have it at the moment. Can't see the company doctor then .

Might piss them off But they seem to of put you through a lot of stress so feck them. Use your sick time to look for another job.

Just remember it's just a job. Try not to worry so much. Plenty of work out there with nicer co workers.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248410#Comment_122248410

A company doctor after a week is ridiculous.

They're "managing you out".

Update your CV and start looking for another job, asap.

Purple Mountain

Did you put any specific illness on the cert? You do not need to disclose the reason of illness to the company and the Dr can just put "Unfit".

As far as I know, your GP can say you are not fit/suitable to be seen by the company Dr.

Seriously though, if you can afford to get out of there and be unemployed for a while, quit. They sound like a rotten company with the lack of training, horrible middle management, HR and medical approaches.

I quit a similar job in the past with no safety net. Quite similar circumstances to what you describe. My only regret is that I didn't walk out sooner.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248548#Comment_122248548

Did you put any specific illness on the cert? You do not need to disclose the reason of illness to the company and the Dr can just put "Unfit".

This is true. The only time they really have to know the nature of an illness, is if it is a health and safety concern - i.e. a communicable disease, or something that would physically affect ability to do your job on return.

All your GP should have put on the cert is "unfit for work" and a "fit to return on" date.

Kiiyuka

My GP put "anxiety and stress"…. which is true, as this is really what I am suffering with. This whole thing is giving me just massive panic attacks… I dont mind seeing the company doctor but I know that they are mostly on company side…. And I know the company does not care, even about the opinion of their own nurses and doctors… But its literally as if they are doubting my GP and me…. What, are they essentially claiming my GP is lying?

I hoped they will not question a cert with a problem specified…. but I guess I was wrong.

If I get a GP's note saying that I am unfit to see company Dr, can I write a letter to my company that what they doing is a disgraceful?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248603#Comment_122248603

And now, because of them, you will spend the week off, worrying, anxious and stressed. So nothing achieved.

Your employers are assholes. Stop focussing on trying to get on their good side, it's not going to happen. Focus on getting out of there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248603#Comment_122248603

Try not to stress about it, what have they achieved if you do go to company doc? He'll either agree with your GP or not, so what.. you have a GP cert, under Irish law your fine..

They really are treating you badly.. not a good place to work, how do you see this being fixed?

From what I see they is no fixing this, I dont think you have much choice but to leave, and the sooner the better for your own health..

Kiiyuka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249705#Comment_122249705

Hey, thanks… I dont mind going to company doc, but it is additional stress which I tried to avoid…. All I wanted was a week of peace and quietness to let the meds kick in, but no. My company isn't about that. If the company doc will disagree with my GP then what? Who has more power? I checked the company they want to send me to, it does not have good reviews…

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249733#Comment_122249733

Ive been down the the meds route as well, depending on the meds they can take 4 - 6 weeks to kick in, and can actually make you feel more anxious in that 4 - 6 week period..

I feel for ya, this all brings back 2017 for me.. is their no way you can just quit? their are soo many jobs out their, depending on the area your in, it mighnt take that long to get another one

Dont be worrying about the company doc.. you have a cert from your GP (who knows you better!)..

HildaOgdenx

Is there a written policy, in relation to sick leave, in your workplace, OP? If so, that should specify the process around referral to the company doctor.

I know anywhere I have worked that particular route was a long way down the line, and definitely not invoked on the basis of the first medical cert from a GP.

As others have said, it sounds like an awful place to work. I hope that you feel better soon, first of all, and secondly that you can get the hell out of there.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250263#Comment_122250263

In a lot of cases if stress is mentioned as the reason employers send to Occ doc straight away to cover themselves in case it is work related - they have a duty of care. It's a flag for legal risk

Glaceon

I'm currently on sick leave for similar (but not identical) reasons. In my case, my GP just put down "illness", rather than going into the specifics.

Kiiyuka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250263#Comment_122250263

Hi, I checked, all it says is that the company reserves the right to send me to an occupational or company doctor and that I am required to attend.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122251025#Comment_122251025

What if the stress is work related?

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122251352#Comment_122251352

If the cause of stress is work related they have a legal obligation / duty of care to take reasonable action to resolve it

Purple Mountain

The fact that HR got a cert that states stress and they contact you immediately with an appointment for a consultation with the company doctor just screams sh1tty company to me.

If you knew someone was suffering with stress, you'd pull back and let them have space.

I can tell from your posts OP, that you are really suffering with anxiety over this. As I said before, I had a job that stressed me to the max, no support, crazy conditions etc. I can smell work stress at this stage!

It's not going to get better by buying a week of time.

You've seen their colours. You deserve better for yourself.

HildaOgdenx

I agree with @Purple Mountain - the last thing any half decent employer would do is pile on the stress on an employee by immediately mentioning a referral to the company doctor.

Mind yourself OP.
Nothing is more important than your health.