You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from China

zerosquared

Title shamelessly borrowed and improved upon from two similarly titled threads

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/05/22/europe-must-defend-itself-china-export-tsunami-crush/

Makes good points, while the US has woken up to China destroying their industry (and leading to likes of Trump) and is now going thru an industrial and employment boom

We in Europe (and UK) are about to repeat all of the same mistakes

ancapailldorcha

It'd be nice if you could have laid out a position instead of just lazily pasting a link.

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173721#Comment_122173721

Sure, should follow the US in slapping tariffs on China before they destroy what is left of European industry and gives fuel to European Trumps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173723#Comment_122173723

huān yíng

Overheal

what, they seem harmless?

/s

nullzero

Here's hoping they never get around to invading Taiwan.

Everything about China screams distopia.

ancapailldorcha

They're going to have serious demographic issues very soon as a result of the calamitous one child policy.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058352879/youve-been-looking-in-the-wrong-direction-the-dangers-are-coming-from-china

Oh no, cheap Chinese cars

Whatever shall we do!

Protectionism is anti consumer, always has been. Tariffs only aid large corpos who fail to adapt, hurts the consumer massively.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058352879/youve-been-looking-in-the-wrong-direction-the-dangers-are-coming-from-china

I think the OP was either at the dentist this morning and read a waiting room magazine or else just watch an episode of the us office

Padre_Pio

China is light years ahead of the rest of the world.

They've built an economy to rival the US in less than 70 years and they have far more potential than any other country in terms of infrastructure, manufacturing, export and economic capacity

Maybe we should be friendlier with them, rather than become enemies.

Podge_irl

China's economy does not rival the US' and it is a despotic dictatorship, which plays a large part in its infrastructure and economic capacity. It is, however, massively reliant on demand from the "west".

We are also not enemies, we are guarded competitors and collaborators on the international market which acknowledging their dictatorial existence and expansionist aims.

Potatoeman

How are the concentration camps going if over there?
Remember “Free Tibet”?
Any protests against this? Nah, it’s not popular currently.

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174545#Comment_122174545

You might have had a point if it was a normal liberal democratic country for example Japan (who in 90s looked like heading to number 1 spot) or South Korea

Their mercantilist policies are designed to destroy industries in other countries (while suppressing own population) and their political class is actively sprouting rhetoric against our culture and way of life

We should smile and be friendly to those who want to destroy our industrial capacity and sink economies and create mass unemployment? What do you think would happen to people in Europe employed in industries such as car manufacturing? Should they just be happy to live in rust belts consuming Chinese fentanyl and vote for extreme Trump like figures?

Has nothing been learned from the US experience

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174600#Comment_122174600

There's more than a whiff of Sinophobia off of this, frankly. You've made a lot of claims based on an op-ed from a tabloid rag.

Nobody's pretending that the Chinese state is ethical. It's clearly authoritarian and oppressive. That said, bringing in a wave of tariffs is going to just hurt consumers. The world has globalised. It's going to take a lot of pain to undo that even if the political will was there which it isn't.

Andrewf20

It's the brutal work culture in China and other Asian countries that has me concerned. It has led to the 996 culture and lay down movement in parts of Asia.

This work culture appears to be a big factor in what drives their economy but it's having ripple affects elsewhere as other parts of the world have to work harder to keep up. I see it where I work with budget and headcount cuts like never before. People are worn out.

It's ironic that cheap produce from a globalised economy might actually lead to harder lives.

Tell me how

The title is misleading in the context of the other threads referred to .

The article implies that a consequence of an economic collapse in China could be the flooding of western markets. It would suggest that the biggest danger from China, is to China itself.

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174610#Comment_122174610

A will ya stop with that woke nonsense and engage in debate and put away your tar brush

you regularly post in the Trump thread. His main support is in areas of US most impacted by the first wave of deindustrialisation when US companies and administration enthusiastically embraced the idea that trade with China will lead to riches (it did for few at top, and h unemployment and opioid addiction for the average Joe) and China will become a normal and democratic country

Well they didn’t

We shouldn’t allow the same to happen to Europe, it will lead to rise of even more extreme trump like figures you detest.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174625#Comment_122174625

There goes the mask. Thanks for proving my point though.

It should be noted that the people in the rustbelt have voted for economic oblivion for literal decades.

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174640#Comment_122174640

Ah yes, there we have it, these people in the rustbelt deserve the China caused economic malaise and the fentanyl crisis because they are stupid and vote for likes of Trump

You got your correlation and causation backwards and also managed to exhibit the lack of empathy that these people backlashed against

I assume you would be saying same when a banana shaped swathe of Europe where the industrial heart lies from Netherlands thru Germany/France and down to Italy turns into a rust belt as industries such as car manufacturing are destroyed by Chinese dumping

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174677#Comment_122174677

When will this be? Have they announced a date?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174610#Comment_122174610

That said, bringing in a wave of tariffs is going to just hurt consumers. The world has globalised. It's going to take a lot of pain to undo that even if the political will was there which it isn't.

While this is true, it will hurt consumers because we have been happy to offshore manufacturing and indirectly reap the benefits of mass borderline servitude. Though I agree the political will is not there.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174695#Comment_122174695

What's the alternative? We can't even build feckin' houses, never mind iPhones and iPads. Ages ago, I read that an iPhone made in then USA on fair labour terms would cost $19,000. This ignores automation as well. The idea that we can go back to the sixties and make everything here while everyone has a secure, unionised job is a fantasy.

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174723#Comment_122174723

The alternative is being carried out by Biden and his policies

1. Tarrifs on China
2. Massive investment in industrial capacity and infrastructure in US that brought jobs back and lead to record employment and wage rises way above what has been seen in Europe

none of that in Europe where we are sleepwalking into repeating the same mistakes that gave the world likes of Trump

Or are you gonna argue now against Bidens policies for sake of arguing?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174739#Comment_122174739

No, I'd just like a better argument than a silly four-letter word and a linkdump from a tabloid rag.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174723#Comment_122174723

try $2,400 took 15 seconds to google just saying

https://leaders.com/news/business/the-cost-of-making-an-iphone-in-america/#:~:text=Key%20Details,U.S.%20would%20cost%20around%20%242%2C400.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174786#Comment_122174786

Are people that are boycotting Israel going to boycott China too?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174723#Comment_122174723

Well I don't remotely believe that figure for one, it's nonsensical. There is manufacturing in the US that doesn't result in costs like that for "basic" items at all. It is presumably lumping in huge capital costs into annual production or something silly like that.

I don't have a good alternative, but I just think it is important to have sight of the reality. Yes, tariffs increase the cost to the consumer, but the lower cost is based on unfair slave labour incentives. There is also the geopolitical element that offshoring so much production to what is, at best, a country you have fraught relationships with is questionable (c.f. Russia and energy). Perhaps we just need to get used to things being less cheap.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174908#Comment_122174908

Fair enough. It's something I read many years ago. The point that an iPhone would be significantly more expensive if made at home still holds though.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174913#Comment_122174913

Yes it would. This is something we are all probably going to have to come to terms with at some point.

Though people sit around and watch garment factory after garment factory collapse, explode and incinerate in Bangladesh and don't care so the inventive won't come from the populace. But it is a large geopolitical risk and trying to incentivise production back to other countries, even at a cost to the consumer, makes sense beyond pure economic rationale.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174913#Comment_122174913

It's not an iPhone (or even an Android phone), but here's a smartphone that's entirely manufactured in the USA.

https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5-usa/

It retails at $1,599.00, which is indeed more expensive (for lower spec) than an average iPhone (or equivalent Android), but it's not orders of magnitude more expensive.